What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 169356

houyhnhnm wrote:
<snip>
> My point was that I was trying to refute the assumption that Snape's
loyalty turns on whether or not he knew that Peter Pettigrew was
Wormtail the traitor.  The DEs in the know, at least according to
Sirius--if we can rely on his testimony, *knew* that Peter Pettigrew
was the traitor. 

<snip> 

> If Snape *knew* all along that Peter was the Order's traitor and
witheld that knowledge from Dumbledore, then he is not persisting in a
belief that Sirius was guilty because of a character flaw; he is
out-and-out dissembling and he is not Dumbledore's man.
> 

Carol responds:
Exactly. That's why I raised the question. I don't really doubt
Snape's loyalty to DD because of the preponderance of evidence in
favor of it, but still, I'd like to set my mind at rest on this one
point. (My own counterarguments will come later in the post.)

houyhnhnm (out of sequence; sorry):
The question of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore turns on whether he was
in the know about *Peter Pettigrew*, whose alias, it seems to me, is
irrelevant to the discussion.

Carol:

Not necessarily. If Snape knows that Wormtail is the spy and that
Peter Pettigrew is Wormtail, then he knows that Pettigrew is the spy. 

Let me put it as a syllogism.

Wormtail is the spy.
Peter Pettigrew is Wormtail.
Therefore, Peter Pettigrew is the spy.

So, if Snape recognized the names on the map (and knew which name
belonged to which Marauder, Moony being obvious), he must have known
who Wormtail was. He could, of course, have simply put two and two
together based on there being four male voices insulting him in
familiar terms, and concluded from there that Lupin was one of the
manufacturers of the parchment, just as he rightly concluded that it
showed Harry a way to sneak into Hogsmeade), and he wasn't really
within hearing distance in the Pensieve memory, so maybe he didn't
hear them using the nicknames. But *if* he did, and knew who was whom,
we have a problem.

If Snape knew that Wormtail = Pettigrew = the spy and didn't tell DD,
how can he be Dumbledore's man? And how can his behavior in the
Shrieking Shack be excused *if* he knew that Black was innocent, not
of killing Pettigrew (he couldn't possibly know that) but of betraying
the Potters? (If he really thought he was saving the kids from a
murderer and his werewolf accomplice, it's a different matter, of
course. And I *do* think he sincerely believed that James Potter was
"too arrogant" to realize that Sirius Black was untrustworthy, that
Black was being let into the castle by Lupin, that Black was trying to
kill Harry, that Black had shown himself capable of murder at age
sixteen, etc. I'm just trying to fit this one piece involving
Spy!Wormtail into the puzzle.)

First, I think we need to distinguish between Peter's roles as spy and
Secret Keeper. Snape clearly didn't know--could not have known--who
the *Secret Keeper* was. Only the Potters, Sirius Black, and Wormtail
knew about the Secret Keeper switch, so far as we know. DD didn't, and
he would have been Snape's source of information (if Snape knew about
the SK at all). And, like the rest of the WW, Snape had to have
thought that Peter Pettigrew was dead, killed by Sirius Black. He
didn't know that Peter was an Animagus who could transform into a rat
and disappear into the sewers. But he could still have known that the
*spy* was Wormtail and that Wormtail was Peter Pettigrew, and, if so,
he concealed that crucial information from Dumbledore. And yet, if
Pettigrew wasn't the Secret Keeper, he couldn't have betrayed the
Potters, even if he was a spy. And it doesn't make sense for the spy
and the traitor to be two different people. So I'm back to Snape
thinking that Black was spy, Secret Keeper, traitor, and murderer,
which is certainly the impression that he gives in the Shrieking
Shack. Which doesn't fit with his knowing that Wormtail was the spy,
so maybe he really didn't.

houyhnhnm:

> The thing is, we don't really know what Snape's status was among the
Death Eaters during VWI.  We don't know what DE activities he
participated in. All we know is that Voldemort sent Snape to apply for
a position at Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore at the time the prophecy
was made and that he failed to do so.  

Carol responds:
I don't think we even know that. It wasn't the beginning of the school
year (job interview would normally be conducted in Auguast, right
before the start of term. It was a cold, rainy night, either in spring
or in late fall; Trelawney had been teaching *nearly* sixteen years,
not a full sixteen as would have been the case had she been hired at
the usual time. So, apparently, there was an unexpected vacancy, and
had she not applied for it--and made that Prophecy--DD would have let
the subject fall out of the curriculum. It's very unlikely that young
Snape was also looking for a teaching job at that point. Slughorn, of
course, was still teaching Potions, and the DADA job would have been
filled at the beginning of the year. And since DD didn't anticipate
that interview, I don't see how Voldemort or Snape could have. I think
that young Snape only happened to be in the Hog's Head, and, like
Harry on several occasions, was prompted by curiosity to eavesdrop.
But obviously Trelawney is wrong about his motivation: he wasn't
looking for job-hunting tips. (IMO, Voldemort sent him to apply for
the DADA job nearly two years later, which is when he was hired to
teach Potions. I don't think he applied unsuccessfully before that. At
least, we have no evidence of it.)

But I agree that we don't know his status among the Death Eaters, and
we do have Karkaroff's word that many of the DEs didn't know one
another. Not that Karkaroff is a trustworthy witness, but he certainly
would have given as many names as he could given his desire to betray
his friends and free himself. (I suppose that he didn't mention Lucius
Malfoy et al. because it was public knowledge that they had pled the
Imperius Curse.) And we do see in the graveyard that LV doesn't name
all the DEs and that all of them except Wormtail are hooded and
masked. Under normal circumstances, he would have been hooded and
masked also, and, as others have pointed out, it would have been
especially important to keep his identity under wraps since he was a
spy. Maybe only a select few, including Bellatrix (entrusted with LV's
"most precious" [secrests?]") knew who he was. Maybe he didn't even
attend the meetings because it was so important to keep his identity
secret. And maybe I'm reaching for straws.

houyhnhnm:
We have evidence from both Fudge and Sirius (though I can't remember
where now) that Peter was betraying the Order for around a year before
the Potters' deaths and this was the same time period during which
Snape was spying for Dumbledore.

Carol:
Both conversations are in PoA. Sirius Black belows at Wormtail in the
Shrieking Shack (after Snape is knocked unconscious), "DON'T LIE!
YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM (Voldemort) FOR A YEAR BEFORE
LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY" (PoA Am. e.d 374). Fudge, of
course, thinks that the Secret Keeper was Black, not Wormtail, but he
 correctly deduces that the spy and the SK/traitor are the same
person. He says earlier, in the Three Broomsticks, "Black was tired of
the double-agent role, he was ready to declare his support openly for
You-Know-Who, and he seems to have planned this for the moment of the
Potters' death" (206). He doesn't specify a time frame, but his
conclusions seem to be similar to Snape's (and the WW at large) based
on DD's testimony and the publicity following Black's arrest (at which
Fudge was present).
> 
houyhnhnm:
> Given what we have seen of the way Voldemort operates, I think it is
entirely plausible that Snape was not able to learn the identity of
the traitor.  And given the fact that I believe there is abundant
against both ESE!Snape and OFH!Snape, the only possible conclusion for
me is that Snape did not know Peter was the traitor. <snip>

Carol:

That's my reasoning, too. It just doesn't fit with Snape's apparent
recognition of the nicknames of the "manufacturers" of the parchment.
But, of course, we aren't told that he recognized them. Maybe, being
Snape, he deduced their identity. It wouldn't have been hard,
actually, given the insults. Which other four men (or boys) knew him
intimately enough to insult him in that manner and would have dared to
do so?

Carol, now 80 percent convinced that he didn't recognize the nicknames
but hoping for additional views on the topic