[HPforGrownups] Re: [spec] Horcrux's Opposite: or, love is more powerful than the Dark Lord's kind of magic

[Kemper]

No: HPFGUIDX 169358

> Kemper earlier:
> So, if the smokey phoenix is DD's spirit, then why did it not leave
> upon DD's death?
>
> Ceridwen:
> In some cultures, the soul of a person doesn't immediately leave the
> vicinity when it leaves the person's body. Stories of near-death
> experiences tend to support that view...
>
> There are customs in various cultures which celebrate a passing a
> year after the death. There may be a gathering, there may be gifts
> presented. There may be a religious service. It is then that the
> soul or spirit (I'm never quite clear what other people mean by these
> designations) moves on after a year of hanging around and saying good-
> bye.
>
> In some cultures, the funeral service is supposed to release the
> soul.


Kemper now:
Thanks, Ceridwen; I see that I did not complete my thoughts on the funeral.
I agree with you completely with regards to other cultures.  Perhaps
that is what JKR has intended as part of Wizarding culture, but I will
go ahead and refute that possibility for a couple of reasons.

First, JKR is a writer who is Christian (not a Christian writer) which
she confirmed in an interview back in October 2000.  She also mentions
in the interview that any answers she gives to deep questions about
her beliefs in God would allow the intelligent person to 'guess what's
coming' in the books.  Below is the link:
http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm
My understanding of Christian thought/belief is that the soul leaves
the body upon a persons death.  This seems evident in the Christian
belief surrounding the Crucifixion and while I am aware of the
Trinity, I'm choosing to simplify: body of Christ dies and thus
freeing the spirit for the Harrowing of Hell (helping the dead) and
the Resurrection (helping the living).

And second, Sirius would have had a funeral.

I think that Dumbledore's funeral was part of the spell for the
Opposite Horcrux.
(As Houynhnm adds, I don't think DD has a relic or a material item of
any kind holding his soul to Earth.  I think DD's soul soars freely
without being bound... but I can't think of a better term to describe
the idea than Opposite Horcrux.)  I think that Hagrid may have been
given some tasks to do in preparing DD's body for the Opposite
Horcrux.  In SS, one of the most powerful things DD says is in the
first chapter, The Boy Who Lived, he says it McGonagall who questions
DD's wisdom in trusting Hagrid:

"I would trust Hagrid with my life."

In six books, we haven't seen this fleshed out.  But I believe that if
DD trusted Hagrid with his life, he would trust Hagrid with his
afterlife.


> Kemper earlier:
> DD's spirit (soul) will be allowed to remain on earth by means of an
> Opposite Horcrux.
>
> Ceridwen:
> I'm snipping the rest. This is interesting, and others have
> speculated some HX sort of thing for DD. So far, the only magic we
> *know* of that allows for a soul to be tied to the earth is Dark
> Magic of the evilest variety. It involves killing someone else and
> shredding off a piece of the soul. I can see mirrored Light Magic,
> sure. But I would like to hear speculation about how such a thing -
> why not just call it a Hallow, since the book is titled Deathly
> Hallows? - would be made.
>
> It can't be made through murder, that would make it Dark. If we look
> at things like a circle, or an artist's color-wheel, then there would
> be something on the Light side that *differentiates*, not shreds, a
> piece of soul without murdering, yet leaves it intact inside the host
> until death.

Kemper now:
I agree!  Here is what I see as the similarity and differences:

Dark and Light: the Wizards bodies die

Dark: act of indifference
Light: act of love

Dark: takes a life
Light: sacrifices life

Dark: soul ripped and tied to earthly object
Light: soul whole and free to roam earth

Dark: immortality
Light: eternity


> Ceridwen:
> Maybe that magic is the Patronus. Just speculating here, ...
> but if the phoenix seen at DD's funeral is the release of soul or
> spirit, then as Kemper was guessing, the Patronus is the person's
> soul representative....
>
> It would also not prevent death, which is unnatural.
>
> (In fact, if the initial creation of a Patronus involves
> differentiating a part of the soul for this purpose, maybe that's why
> it's difficult to create one at first - more speculation)
>
> If the Patronus is a form of Opposite Horcrux, then it carries the
> intent of the originating soul. It may have hung around until the
> funeral because it was DD's intent for it to do so. Or, the fire
> could have released it at DD's intent, because I do agree that the
> whole spectacle of the White Tomb was Dumbledore's doing. The fire
> may release the magic.
>
> Interesting thoughts! I hope someone else adds to the speculation!


Kemper now:
Thanks, Ceridwen!  Part of preparing for this thread was looking at
patronuses (patroni? patronae?) in the books.

One of my original ideas, which I still believe but thought it would
distract from my overall point, is that Dumbledore discovered the
possibility for the Opposite Horcrux through his research of the
patronus as he seems to be the one who developed the idea for
communicating with them.  (But wouldn't it be fun if it was Snape?
Just kidding, like we need another Snape thread...)

I have thoughts on the fire releasing the soul, but I need to research
that more.

Kemper