What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169404

Montavilla47:
<snip>
> Because, there is a big *practical* difficulty in forming this 
circle > with everyone's specific place, whether they all knew each 
other's 
> identities or not.  They're all wearing black cloaks and masks.  
How > the heck are they supposed to know where to stand, even if they 
know 
> each other's identities when they're all disguised?
<snip>

Dana:
Sure but then how does LV recognize his own DE's even to the point 
that he is able to name them by name? Isn't a disguise only a 
disguise if you do not know the identity of the person behind the 
disguise? Many DEs worked together on specific assignements as we see 
through OotP and HBP and even DD could recognize some of them even 
while in disguise. 

Hickengruendler:

> That's probably true. But knowing how many they are, does not 
> necessarily mean, that they also know who else is behind the masks. 
> And at least during the end of the First War, it seems rather 
> unlikely that *Snape* was at every meeting, since he was in 
> Hogwarts and could hardly disappear there whenever he wanted. 
> Granted, he could probably leave the castle to Voldemort often 
> enough, since he went there on Dumbledore's orders (no matter to 
> whom he's really loyal), but it's still doubtful that Snape can 
> leave the castle during all of the meetings. (If these meetings 
> happened often, of course, and if not, than there's even less a 
> chance for Snape and Peter to meet.)

Dana:
Snape wasn't at Hogwarts, he only became a teacher right before LV's 
downfall. According to his own account he was a teacher for 14 years 
during OotP while Harry was 15 by that time meaning he could only 
have been a teacher for about 3 months before LV targeted the Potters 
as Harry was 15 months when LV came to his house. 

Hickengruendler:
> Well, yeah, but so what. First of all, Lucius is not Snape. While 
> it does seem, that the Malfoys trust Snape, I don't see why they 
> should talk to him about anything. So even if Lucius knew, that 
> doesn't mean Snape did as well. And second, how well did Lucius 
> know Wormtail during the First War? he was a few years older than 
> the Marauders. Why should he recognise James Potter's friend Peter 
> as the masked Death Eater besides him.  

Dana:
All the people mentioned next to Lucius are people that Snape knew 
and was associated with during his schooldays, this is a little to 
long to not recognize people just by the way they pose themselves or 
recognize their voices. Bella is up to date about Snape not coming to 
the graveyard and about the rumors about Snape living in DD's pocket. 
DEs talk to one another and there is no reason to believe that they 
did not talk to Snape too. How would Bella even know Snape was a DE 
or anyone else to get these rumors spreading. LV does not mention his 
name and only Karkaroff knows Snape was indeed a DE but he is not at 
the graveyard scene either and not very social with the other DEs. 
Bella was locked up in Azkaban and we here from Sirius that no rumors 
about Snape were going around there. 

Bella specifically asks Snape were he was on the night LV went to the 
Potters, if she just learned about Snape's identity after LV came 
back what is it to her where he was the night LV met his faith, 
unless Snape was suppossed to have been there and slithered out of 
action. I still believe Bella was indeed present at GH and it was not 
LV's high pitch cackle Harry heard but her's and how she knew LV did 
not die perminently there as she saw him flet the scene with her own 
eyes. For me it is not hard to imagine that it was Bella's screams 
Sirus heard about Peter. 

Hickengruendler:
> That's a very big assumption. So Wormtail was standing next to 
> Lucius. That doesn't mean they were connected. There is in six 
> books no evidence, that Lucius and Wormtail are connected, except 
> that they are both Death eaters. And anyway, as you quoted, Snape 
> did not stand next to Wormtail or even Lucius. The Lestranges were 
> between them, which makes three places, since there's also 
> Bellatrix' brother in-law. Meaning Snape did not stand all that 
> close to Wormtail.  

Dana:
If I'm correct then Barthy Crouch Jr. stood next to Wormtail and next 
to him Snape and next to him Karkaroff and next to him the three dead 
DEs of which I believe one was Regulus. It seems that people's places 
are never filled not even if they are no longer able to attend the 
meetings. 
Even if the order in which they stood then it is still very close and 
most of them were in the gang of Slytherin's as are the Lestrange. 
I think and yes it is an assumption that it is a specific indication 
that Wormtail was indeed connected to Lucius because why would he go 
and stand next to him and no where else in the circle? Because I 
believe that Lucius was in charge of the new Hogwart recruits and 
that he learned about Peter to one of these recruits. 


Hickengruendler: 
> According to the fake Moody in GoF, Karkaroff fled because he 
> betrayed too many fellow Death Eaters and couldn't be sure to be 
> accepted back. And as it turns out, he was right. if he lied to 
> protect himself, it didn't work, did it?
<snip>


Dana:
It didn't work only after LV came back but he had a confortable time 
for at least 13 years, didn't he? DEs did not get him even though it 
was common knowledge that he ratted out his fellow DEs right? Even 
Sirus knew this information but no one toughed him and only after LV 
came back was he hunted down. 


Hickengruendler:
> I think Wormtail was a special case. If the timeline giben by 
> Sirius in PoA is correct, he was recruited after Trelawney made the 
> prophecy and after Harry was born. That means Voldemort probably 
> already targeted the Potters and searched for the weakest link 
> among the Potters and their friends, which he found in Wormtail. In 
> this case, I don't see why he shouldn't have "visited" Wormtail 
> himself. The Potters certainly were important enough to him. 

Dana:
Because LV had not decided yet who he was going to target - the 
Longbottom's or the Potters, by the time Peter became a spy and DD 
himself implies that Snape became a spy for him around the same time. 
So LV would not pay Wormtail such a high priced visit so soon into it 
because it would draw attention to Wormtail. And LV only goes to the 
Potters himself because he considers Harry to be the one the prophecy 
referred to and as we see time and time again LV would not allow 
anyone but him to proof that no one can defeat the Dark Lord. It was 
not because he had a habit of doing his own dirty work and he would 
never go to someone so low as Wormtail if he can let him be brought 
to him so easily. 

LV only made his decision on who he was going to target right before 
the Potters hid behind the Fidelius Charm because if he had decided 
before that time then the Potters would have been death long before 
DD could ever suggest it to them. Snape might have been specifically 
sent to DD (again) to see if he could find out more information about 
who LV should target. Snape of course could not give him that 
information because he used his remorse story to get into DD's 
confidence and when Snape heard LV picked the Potters he told DD 
because he still had the debt to settle with James but Peter messed 
it up and Snape blames not himself but James and Sirius for it. 

LV would not know anything about Wormtail being the weakest link, 
unless he was told about this specifically and James and Sirius were 
counting on LV being told that Peter was not much of a wizard and why 
he would not be trusted with there secrets. So to me this indicates 
someone got to Peter and told LV what Peter was about and that he 
probably could be of interest to him. 


Hickengruendler:
> But I do not assume at all, that it was Lucius. Why should Lucius 
> know anything about Wormtail? If you believe in evil Snape, I am 
> willing to consider, that evil Severus himself told Voldemort, who 
> was the weakest link among James' friends. But Lucius? So far, we 
> don't even know of any intercation between these two characters. 
> You could just as well have proposed to me, that it was Barty 
> Crouch junior, who recruited Peter. Seems as likely, or rather 
> unlikely, to me, as that it was Lucius.

Dana:
Snape was in LV's employment and he was working as a double spy on 
both DD's and LV's orders. I believe LV never told Snape who he was 
going to target as a result of the prophecy because Snape was to 
young to be of any importance to LV to tell him what he is going to 
do with the information he brought to him. 
But I do believe he told Lucius and that he gave Lucius the 
assignement to find out more about the Potters and the Longbottom's 
and thus it being Lucius who was looking for someone in both inner 
circles that could provide him with this information and Lucius would 
know that Snape was at Hogwarts at the same time as the marauders and 
how Snape found out how LV had interpreted the prophecy and that it 
included Snape knew even if LV had not decided yet who to pick. 

Bella and her gang were specifically SEND to the Longbottom's after 
LV's downfall and according to JKR herself they did not know anything 
about the prophecy. Bella specifically asks were Snape was, implying 
to me that it was not Snape who send Bella and her gang but someone 
did and the choice of this specific target implies to me that that 
someone knew about the prophecy and about LV's dillema in who he 
should target as a result of it. 

I'm not going into the OotP things again here, read my previous posts 
on that subject as I think I was clear enough in what I meant with 
Snape being in the know. 

All is just my very humble opinion of how canon can be interpreted 
too. 

Dana