What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169422

Hickengruendler:
> Yes, I know. That's why I said "at the end of the First War". I 
> know that earlier they could have met, but don't forget that 
> Wormtail wasn't recruited that long before. It's not that he was 
> that long a Death Eater, I think he started spying around a year 
> before Godric's Hollow, and it's not sure that he participated in 
> the DE Meetings, in the beginning.
<snip>

Dana:
Him having a specific place in the circle seem to indicate he did and 
him having a dark mark and not merely used as outside spy indicates 
he was there when LV had something important to share with his DEs. 
I do not forget that Wormtail was already working as a spy for a 
whole year and that the Potters only hid behind the Fidelius Charm 
one week before Wormtail let LV to them. 

Hickengruendler:
> We don't know, when Voldemort decided this. If Peter became a spy 
> around a year prior to Godric's Hollow, than Harry was already 
> born. Therefore, theoretically Voldemort could have made his 
> decision already. There's nothing in Canon, that contradicts this, 
> because we don't know, when e exactly Voldemort decided Harry was 
> the one. Snape started teaching after Slughorn retired, therefore 
> we can't give the day of his hiring as a fix date for when he came 
> to Dumbledore with this information. 
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, we do because it was specifically stated in PoA that one of DD's 
helpful spies told DD, LV was going to target the Potters and that DD 
suggested the Fidelius because of this information and it was only 
one week after the charm was in place that Peter gave the secret to 
LV. Peter had access to the Potters before that time so why would LV 
wait if he had already decided who to target until they are safely 
hidden behind the charm. 

So LV had not made up his mind before that time or he would have gone 
after the Potters sooner. A year is a long time and although the 
Potters were in hiding probably before that time LV did not need the 
SK to get to them. LV did not wait so that Peter could provide him 
with the information about the secret to protect Peter being the spy 
because without it, no one would have ever known who the spy was 
because everybody knowing the Potters location could have revealed it 
then. LV would not have needed Peter for that. 

It doesn't matter when DD hired Snape he wasn't at Hogwarts until the 
next year started and so he was free to attend DE meetings when ever 
he liked. I was not referring to Snape as starting spying at the time 
he began teaching at Hogwarts as this has been discussed before and 
Snape being at Hogwarts does not prevent him to be in contact with LV 
during OotP or HBP either but it is irrelevant because Snape wasn't 
at Hogwarts long before LV met his downfall at GH and if he started 
at the new semester he was actually working only 2 months at Hogwarts 
as the new term starts on 1 of September and LV went to the Potters 
on Halloween night. So Snape was free to go to every single DE 
meeting.


Hickengruendler:
> Yes, possibly. But that still doesn't prove, that Lucius Malfoy had 
> anything to do with it, because there are countless other possible 
> Death eaters, and because it is unlikely that Malfoy knew Wormtail 
> well enough. If you are going with evil Snape (which I don't, as 
> you know ;-) ) it seems more likely to me, that he himself 
> recruited Wormtail, since he knew the Marauders and their possible 
> weaknesses. I find this much more plausible than bringing Lucius 
> Malfoy into the mix, because the so called connection between him 
> and Wormtail seems pure guesswork to me.

Dana:
As I stated I believe it was Lucius and he used information he got 
from Snape. The reason I believe it was no one other then Lucius is 
because he specifically states in OotP that he knows why LV went 
after Harry while JKR specifically stated Bella did not. JKR never 
introduced other powerful DEs that where involved in this specific 
issue. Snape doesn't seem like the recruiting kind, he is not social 
enough to do that Snape is about gathering information and I believe 
Snape was not included in anything to do with the prophecy besides 
him bringing it to LV because LV had sent him to spy on DD. 

I believe Snape heard through Lucius how LV interpreted the prophecy 
and when LV made up his mind which family he was going to pick. 
Lucius might not have mentioned to Snape at first why he wanted 
information on the inner circle of the Potters when Snape gave him 
info. There are a million of possibilities here but I have no doubt 
that it was Lucius that was in the lead of gathering information on 
the Potters and the Longbottom's and that it was him that send Bella 
and her gang after the Longbottom's and therefore to me it is not 
stretch to think LV knew Wormtail was the spy and the SK and if he 
knew this then to me it is not hard to believe that even if Snape did 
not know before that he was told after.  

Hickengruendler:
> But according to Dumbledore Snape came to him with the regret, that 
> Voldemort targeted James and Lily, and it was *then*, when he 
> started his work as a spy, If this was a week prior to Godric's 
> Hollow, there simply was not any time for Snape to do some actual 
> work as a spy.

Dana:
No, that is not what DD stated he stated that Snape regretted the way 
LV interpreted the prophecy and it including people that Snape knew. 
That doesn't mean that LV already made up his mind that it was going 
to be the Potters, there was still a chance LV was going to target 
the Longbottom's. Snape learning about this information could have 
given him an entrance to DD as he knew DD was aware that he heard 
part of the prophecy and he was under orders from LV to spy on DD 
anyway but it could very well be that Snape already was motivated by 
the debt in case LV was indeed going to pick the Potters and then 
when he indeed did Snape did tell DD and why DD suggested the 
Fidelius to them.  

Snape was loyal to LV enough to bring him the prophecy and it takes 
him at least 9 months to start regretting it and only then does he go 
to DD. After LV had decided it could only be two families because 
only their kids fitted the part LV had of the prophecy. To me this 
still indicates that Snape was motivated to go to DD only because it 
included James's family and the debt he owed James and to me his 
actions in PoA where he blames both Sirius and James himself indicate 
to me too that Snape blamed them because they racked his chance to 
get rid of that annoying debt and his actions towards Harry do not 
indicate Snape regretted James being dead as a result of information 
he brought LV as DD suggest he came to him for in the first place and 
no neither do I see any sign of guilt that Lily died as a result to 
because you would not treat their son in such away if you truly feel 
guilty. JMHO 


 Hickengruendler:
> But that's not what happened, acording to Dumbledore. According to 
> Dumbledore, Snape came to him, because he regretted that the 
> Potters were targeted. Either Snape fooled Dumbledore or he was 
> genuine, but it was about the Potters, therefore Voldemort must 
> have already made his decision.

According to Snape himself he went to DD on LV's orders and Bella 
confirms this. And canon does not suggest that LV already had made up 
his mind just that both the Potters and the Longbottom's fitted the 
content of the prophecy. Also LV's actions do not suggest that he 
already had made up his mind because he already had a spy for a whole 
year that could have directed him to the Potters at any time he 
wanted but it is specifically suggested that LV made up his mind 
right before the fidelius charm was put in place and not before. And 
sure I have no problem with the suggestion that Snape was not longer 
a spy for DD then right before he told DD this but canon suggests 
that he was a spy for DD longer as the Potters went in to hiding long 
before LV targeted them and so did the Longbottom's although not much 
information is given about them. 

JMHO

Dana