Marietta/On Children and the Other

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 169518


> Alla:
> 
> I am talking only about unrepentant Voldemort supporters. Those 
who 
> kill and torture for whatever reasons they have.
> 
> I mean, I am not saying that Harry and any of the good guys should 
go 
> out and kill them for sport.
> 
> But understand their reasons? I mean, if they wish to study 
> psychopaths for a living, maybe. Otherwise, why?

Magpie:
I didn't think that was even an issue. Harry liking Bellatrix or 
even Lucius Malfoy doesn't seem like anything he's being asked to do 
by anybody. II don't think Harry particularly needs to understand 
their reasons for killing and torturing--though I think he would do 
well to think about how his society may have wound up with so many 
of these people and their supporters. There wouldn't be anything 
wrong with his wanting to know.

If Malfoy decides he's rather kill and torture for a living (despite 
the story about how he decided he would not like that) I don't think 
Harry would be called upon to have much understanding. Then, yes, I 
think it's enough to just understand that other people need to be 
protected from him. But I don't see where this is an issue in the 
book at all, which is why I don't think people are thinking about it 
much. If this is a coming of age story, coming of age doesn't 
usually mean dealing with psychopaths, because they are outside of 
most peoples' experience. 

But of course, somebody could enjoy killing and torturing and be 
against Voldemort too. It's interesting that in discussions of 
groups that people are watching to see who they'll side with it 
doesn't always come down to them being murderers.

Alla:

Wasting post again - Ugh, because did not add this sentence. YES,
that is precisely what I am talking about. Harry should go as far as
respecting all people who **help** him with Voldemort IMO.

Magpie:
Voldemort will be defeated in a year, and plenty of people in the 
world will never have had much to do with him. I suspect it's more 
important how Harry deals with people in general, and people who are 
different than he is, regardless of Voldemort. Which it actually 
does seem will be having some understanding of DEs. Not DEs like 
Bellatrix, maybe, but the ones who got in and wanted out. And I 
wouldn't count out Loyal Barty Crouch as not having anything to 
teach Harry at all, even if I'm not quite sure what it is. Barty's 
still quite popular with the kids even after his outing as a DE. So 
being a DE doesn't actually seem like a deal-breaker when it comes 
to being a guy the good guys like. He was nice to them and they 
learned loads.

Alla:
I think Malfoy will always remain the disgusting snob I thought of
him when I read about him first, but IF he helps with Voldemort, he
deserves respect from Harry and Trio, no matter how much they will
dislike each other, if he **does not**, then he deserves no respect
whatsoever in my view, because being with Voldemort is being on the
unconditionally bad side.

Magpie:
Probably I'll always think Ginny is the awful person I think she is--
but I would still think she deserves a certain level of respect as a 
human being (more, it seems, than many people think some other 
characters deserve that they don't like). But I don't give her that 
respect or compassion because she helped against Voldemort. 

Lupinlore:
If the trio were to decide "well, we don't like you <whoever> but you
are okay if you are against Voldy," that is as "relative" a morality
as one that says Gryffindors good, Slytherins bad. It is in effect
saying, "I don't care if you do whatever," yes, including abuse of
children, "as long as you are on the right side." Not a very
laudable moral message, that. In fact, I'd say it's downright
contemptible.

Magpie:
Actually, I kind of agree. I think the problem is that it's just not 
that simple. There are no clear groups of good or bad. Every single 
character is just different. If Snape is DDM and has and did great 
things in the war against LV, that doesn't make his petty bullying 
of Harry in class part of that fight. Likewise, Snape's petty 
bullying of Harry in class doesn't cancel out any heroics on the 
good side. Even Quirrel doesn't deny Snape hates Harry, he just says 
that he also doesn't wish him dead...while Quirrel, who does not 
hate Harry, does want him dead. Barty Crouch was nice to Harry and 
is still a popular teacher, regardless of his being a very loyal DE 
who wanted Harry dead. 

JKR's strength seems to lie much of the time in creating characters 
built around a central conflict, perhaps because that way they can 
ram up against each other and do whatever they need to do for the 
plot for believable (sometimes) reasons. In the first book she 
pretty much threw down the gauntlet for nice vs. good if "good" 
meant working in the interest of bringing down Voldemort. She has 
said Snape is "deeply horrible," but that doesn't mean she's never 
had sympathy or empathy for him.

-m