On Children and the "Other" (was:Re: On the perfection of moral virtues)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 169567

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> So, yeah, every murderer and torturer has a right to fair trial, at 
> the same time if I see enough evidence that this IS a murderer and 
> torturer, then in fiction ( certainly not in RL), I will condemn    
> them freely. 
> <snip>
> If I am wrong later on, oh well – it is after all just fiction.

Betsy Hp:
Oh yes, I totally get that it can be fun to cheer for something that 
occurs in fiction that would be more uncomfortable to cheer for in 
real life.  For example, I chuckled at Snape's "I see no difference" 
though in real life, it's a horrible thing to say to an actual, real 
child. 

But I'm talking about how the fictional characters interact in their 
own world.  So within the book I agree that Snape's comment was 
wrong.  Harry and co. treat those who disagree with them on however a 
trivial level (quidditch; politics) in a way I'm only comfortable 
with in a fictional world.  IOWs, they treat those around them 
as "other" or less than human.  And they do it often enough, and 
without any sort of twinge of conscience, that it does come across as 
wrong to me.

> >>Alla:
> We will just agree to disagree here, although probably to a degree. 
> I do not subscribe completely to dan(?) idea that JKR supports 
> anarchists values that strongly, but I think to a degree she does.
> I think she shows that in corrupt system justice needs to be taken 
> in own hands sometimes. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one 
people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with 
another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate 
and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God 
entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires 
that they should declare the causes which impel them to the 
separation."

Has Dumbledore mailed the above type of declaration to the Ministry?  
Have the Order members, or the DA for that matter, shown themselves 
willing to be thrown in prision as Martin Luther King, Jr. allowed 
himself to be?  Until such things occur I'm not looking at their 
attempts to overthrow the Ministry as noble. <bg>

Though wasn't Dumbledore's entire point in OotP that he was *not* 
trying to overthrow the Ministry?  Wasn't his thrust more towards 
everyone recognizing their common enemy and dealing with him? 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Harry and Co. think they can dictate what all is involved in     
> > being on the "right side".  And apparently it's not merely being 
> > against Voldemort.  One must also be against the Ministry, for    
> > Dumbledore, for the Gryffindor quidditch team, personally        
> > positive towards Harry and his friends, and I *think* that's     
> > everything.  Oh, and of course, you need to be willing to turn on 
> > your family the *moment* they question any of the above.  Then    
> > you come close to rating as being on the "right" side.

> >>Alla:
> See above.

Betsy Hp:
I don't get it.  You agree that Harry's apparent requirements of 
absolute personal loyalty to himself and Dumbledore are valid?

> >>Alla;
> <snip>
> I am fully convinced that she [Marietta] knew what Umbridge was    
> capable of and she still went to her.

Betsy Hp:
Of course you are; only the Prosecution was allowed to testify. <bg>  
We have no *idea* why Marietta did what she did.  All we have to go 
on is a half-spoken testimony from Cho, which the Prosecution 
objected to pretty much immediately.

It's very easy to convince the jury of the defendent's guilt if 
they're not allowed to defend themselves.  See Sirius as a prime 
example.

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> So, yes, not a Voldemort supporter, but her action IMO is worthy of 
> junior Voldemort supporter.

Betsy Hp:
Except for the way that Marietta (and the Ministry) in no way support 
Voldemort. <g>  It's kind of like calling Stalin a junior Nazi.  So 
much for the Soviet Union's role in WWII.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169562
> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> One of the themes that comes up *a lot* in this universe is         
> competing versions of stories based on biased povs.

Betsy Hp:
Exactly.  And I think what Harry and co. need to recognize is that an 
opposing pov is not necessarily a bad thing.  And that those who hold 
to a different pov are not necessarily so bad that they are no longer 
quite as human as Harry and co.  *And* that those with opposing pov's 
should be allowed to share them without fear of reprisal.  (Is that 
pushing it? I'm not sure...)

I think JKR is gearing up to expose the Trio to that sometimes hard 
to learn fact.  I don't think it's an accident that Cho supports her 
friend.  I don't think it's an accident that we were reminded about 
the brand in HBP.  

Betsy Hp (posting from work... shhhh)