On Children and the "Other" (was:Re: On the perfection of moral virtues)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 169582

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Harry and Co. think they can dictate what all is involved in     
> > being on the "right side".
> > <snip>

> >>Jen:  Harry and friends have the right to 'be', hold opinions    
> they have formed about the world and choose their own friends as    
> well.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, of course they do.  I don't deny them that at all.  It's what 
they *do* to others that bothers me, really.  Though some of their 
beliefs bother me too, it's the actions and lack of remorse that 
actually *worry* me in the end.

> >>Jen:
> As the story has progressed, those who support the MOM or oppose 
> Dumbledore are helping Voldemort, whether intentionally or not, so 
> the examples above appear to tie into which side a person is 
> choosing.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Harry going to the DoM unintentionally supported Voldemort.  Does 
that make him a member of the "wrong" side now?  Does that mean that 
Harry is no longer quite as human as those who've been completely 
obedient to Dumbledore?  May we hit Harry with sticks now? <eg>

I know the answer is "no" of course.  But it seems to me that Harry 
and his friends are allowed to make some mistakes, and yet still 
remain on the "right" side.  Others (or should I say "others" <g>) 
are not given as much leniency.  Probably, IMO, *because* Harry and 
co. doesn't recognize them as human or real and therefore susceptible 
to various pressures and misunderstandings as well. 

> >>Jen:
> <snip>
> And what's an example of Quidditch team preference or not liking 
> someone being the sole reason for the Trio to conclude an individual
> supports Voldemort?  Without other evidence for such a connection, 
> I mean.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I was equating "right" with "human".  Harry and co. have a ruler that 
measures the worth of people much finer than mere support of 
Voldemort.  If folks don't fully measure up than they're wrong enough 
that it's okay for Hermione to permently disfigure them, or wrong 
enough for Ginny to hex or smash into with a broom.  (Something that 
wouldn't have mightly offended the Gryffindors if a Slytherin had 
done the same to Lee Jordan.)
 
> >>Jen:  I'm not sure what they are doing that's tantamount to using 
> Voldemort's and Crouch, Sr.'s, tactics?  I don't want to be 
> dismissive of things they've done that aren't ethical (imo) such as 
> Marietta getting the seemingly permanent disfiguration, but I don't 
> see a progression with the Trio that is in any way equal to those 
> particular individuals.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, it's *not* equal of course.  Otherwise there wouldn't be space 
for the Trio to change and grow.  (Please, let there be space for the 
Trio to change and grow! <bg>)  I think the Trio have dipped their 
toes in the pool of tryanny (more because of their childishness than 
any kind of drive for absolute power), but just a toe.

> >>Jen:
> Likewise, most of the examples given in the this thread of the Trio 
> taking away rights are personal examples of revenge or lack of     
> acceptance of others which have no power behind them other than     
> what they possess as individuals or as a group of friends.  
> The fact that Harry has been ostracized twice by large groups of 
> fellow students indicates how little power he holds over others as 
> the Boy Who Lived.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think that's where the lack of realism comes in a little.  Fellow 
students don't strike back in the way they would in real life, IMO.  
Ginny isn't jumped by Hufflepuffs; Hermione isn't jumped by 
Ravenclaws.  Seamus and Dean are weirdly passive when it comes to Ron 
and Harry. I think it's because (I *hope* it's because) JKR has a 
sense of where and when the Trio will learn their final lesson on how 
to treat others.

> >>Jen:
> That seems to be the key as I understand it:  Harry and friends    
> don't possess institutionalized power to oppress those considered   
> in the minority or those conferred with inferior social status      
> (such as house elves, giants, centaurs, etc.).

Betsy Hp:
Just Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs?  And non-prefect Gryffindors? <eg> 
Oh, and adults who aren't in good with Dumbledore.  Other than that, 
yes they're just three lonely, powerless, unpopular students. <g>

> >>Alla:
> Huh? So you are saying that there is an evidence that hidden from us
> that Marietta did not go to Umbridge and/or she did not know what
> she is capable of?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'm saying we don't know if there were mitigating circumstances.  
Gosh, for all we know there was a Ministry member holding Marietta's 
mother at wand-point.  We just don't know because Marietta hasn't 
been allowed to give her side of the story.

> >>Alla:
> And I think the fact that she indeed **went** to Umbridge, I will
> repeat again - she did **Not** go to her mother, if one argues that
> one is loyal to her family as defense, she went to **Dolores
> Umbridge**. She was not even forcefully dragged to Dolores UMbridge,
> she went on her own.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And we know all of the above because...  Harry says so? <eg>

> >>Marion:
> Gandalf:
> Deserves it? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And   
> some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be 
> too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise    
> cannot see all ends.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I love Gandalf.  Poor Dumbledore; no chance to study the master.  
Sucks to be a wizard, really. <g>  (Hee! Sad thing is, pants bring 
out a similar emotion.  Go Muggles! <bg>) 

Betsy Hp