Slytherin as villains / Ender vs. Harry SPOILERS for Ender's Game

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 178933

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Slytherin was the actual villain of the piece (hell would be     
> > Hogwarts without a Sorting Hat) and they were painted as bad to   
> > the bone, IMO. 

> >>zgirnius:
> Except the dead ones. And Slughorn. And Draco.
> The villain was Tom Marvolo Riddle, aka Lord Voldemort, along with 
> his henchmen/women. He, and some of them, were Slytherins. Their 
> opposition also included Slytherins.

Betsy Hp:
And what was the monster's goal?  To turn everyone into a Slytherin.  
Which is a bad thing going by the reactions of everyone around.  
Because, my goodness, there are some good children out there!  Why 
should they get stuck in the bad house?

Snape *barely* rose above his house, and that because of the love of 
a good Gryffindor.  Slughorn and Regulus were decent but still a bit 
questionable (possibly still bigots).  Draco was weak, cowardly and 
not a supporter of Hogwarts in the end.  And none of them, not a 
single Slytherin you might name were able to keep their house from 
leaving Hogwarts and joining with Voldemort when the time came. 


> >>BetsyHP:
> > When it came to defending Hogwarts, Slytherin left.  

> >>zgirnius:
> The books were about Harry's destiny to defeat Voldemort and reduce 
> the influence of his poisonous ideas on the wizarding world. When   
> it came to defeating Voldemort, Regulus, Snape, Phineas Nigellus, 
> Slughorn, Andromeda, Narcissa, and Draco all took part. 

Betsy Hp:
And all of Slytherin left and joined with Voldemort.

"If your son is dead Lucius, it is not my fault.  He did not come and 
join with me, LIKE THE REST OF THE SLYTHERINS." [DH scholastic p.641 -
 emphasis mine]

Apparently Voldemort did a head count.  Apparently he had heads to 
count.  Because Slytherin kids are bad kids and they are the villains 
of the piece.  With Voldemort as their star.

A few players (some of them bit players at the most) do not make a 
difference, IMO.  And especially a few players moving away from 
Voldemort but not towards Hogwarts (or Harry) do nothing more than 
shine a brighter spotlight on the fact that when Hogwarts was in 
need, Slytherin left and joined with her foe.  That makes them 
traitors at best.

> >>Carol:
> FWIW, the Slytherins, most of whom had known Headmaster Snape as    
> their HOH and Potions Master or DADA teacher for a varying number   
> of years, thought (like everyone else) that Snape was a Death       
> Eater. If they liked and admired Snape, they weren't going to      
> oppose what they thought was his will and his agenda.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Which makes for an interesting why and wherefore.  But Harry wasn't 
interested so we never do learn why all of Slytherin leave.  And I 
think that's because for JKR, it doesn't matter.  These are the bad 
guys being identified as such.  IMO,She doesn't care about what makes 
them tick, she cares about providing a good fight for her hero.

> >>zgirnius:
> The final quote you give, and hang your argument on, is the tail   
> end of a paragraph of speech by Harry. The rest of it...

> Epilogue:
> "But *just say*-"
> "-then Slytherin House will have gained an excellent student, won't 
> it? It doesn't matter to us, Al."

> >>zgirnius:
> Is Harry lying? Or does it really not matter to him? I believe     
> Harry is telling the truth, so I do not believe Al picked up this   
> worry from his parents.

Betsy Hp:
A little boy isn't terrified of ending up in the bad house, the 
bigots' house, the traitors' house, without some sort of family 
influence.  And James wouldn't run around saying Slytherin was that 
bad if his parents disagreed at heart.

I don't think Harry is lying.  I think Harry thinks Al's fear totally 
unfounded.  Al has no chance of ending up in Slytherin because Al's 
not a bad kid, and most importantly, he doesn't want to be in 
Slytherin.  And Harry knows that this desire makes all the 
difference.  Just *want* to be a good kid and that'll take you most 
of the way.  (The tragedy of Snape is that he didn't want to be 
a "good kid" until it was far too late and Lily was on 
Voldemort's "to be killed" list.)


> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > In the Potterverse it doesn't matter where a child's opinion     
> > comes from (JKR all but wrote a big sign saying Draco was        
> > parroting his father in the first two books) it's still enough to 
> > determine that child's worth.  

> >>zgirnius:
> No, it is not.

Betsy Hp:
Yes, it is. <g>  A child's worth is determined at Sorting.  So, as 
per JKR, a kid parroting his father's views is stuck.  (We get that 
line about "sorting too early" but the fact is, age eleven is when 
you get sorted.  End of story.)

> >>zgirnius:
> To the extent that Draco comes to realize his father had some      
> things wrong, Draco proves himself better than his father.

Betsy Hp:
When do we see Draco decide his father's gotten some things wrong?  I 
don't see Draco becoming a better man than his father by series end.  
I mean, Lucius is alive and kicking as far we know, and he's got a 
grandson, so as far as I can tell, Lucius and Draco are ending on a 
similar note.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > And yet, the Slytherins all acted en masse.  None of them joined 
> > the DA, none of them fought for Hogwarts.  

> >>zgirnius:
> You pick two incidents out of an entire series.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Lord, if I could hand-wave DH away, I would. <g> But I can't and so 
I'm forced to deal with the fact that the story of the House rivalry 
ends with Slytherin leaving Hogwarts and joining with her enemy.  I'm 
not randomly picking two scenes, I'm judging the story by how it 
ends.  

If you're told a tale about a couple on a lovely picnic and it ends 
with the girl stabbing the boy, I think you miss the point if you 
fixate on the fact she'd made his favorite sandwich with her own two 
hands. The ending is important.

> >>zgirnius:
> And the Battle of Hogwarts was not what brought about the defeat of 
> Voldemort. It was Harry's actions, actions made possible by the    
> lies of one Slytherin and the information provided by another.  

Betsy Hp:
Snape and Regulus, I'm guessing?  Snape who become so good he very 
nearly overcame being a Slytherin in the first place?  And Regulus, 
who acted in revenge for his beloved house-elf.  Which was cool, but 
also by gones.  The battle of Hogwarts was decisive.  That's when the 
truth came out: who were you for?  Percy joined the battle and was 
redeemed.  And the house of Slytherin walked out and joined Voldemort.
 
> >>zgirnius:
> My own view is that Rowling believes things like that social       
> justice starts at home, and our children are the future, and all    
> that jazz. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
And some children are more worthy than others, depending on their 
home life.  Bad parents means bad children.  (If there's something 
wrong with the bitch, there's something wrong with the pup.)

> >>zgirnius:
> It's not an anti-feminist view at all; it would be only if we 
> insisted this is the role and responsibility of women, exclusively, 
> in society.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
My thinking on JKR and her views on woman have to do with the utter 
fear with which female sensuality is dealt with in the text, the 
disdain expressed towards girls acting like girls, the way making a 
boy seem girly was the ultimate put-down, and the rather old-
fashioned way various tasks were assigned.  I don't think JKR was 
*trying* to be so anti-female.  Frankly, I'm betting she was doing 
her best to write the opposite.  It's just, I felt some deeper 
feelings creeped through.  (And yes, I could be crazy, but I saw what 
I saw. <g>)
 
> >>zgirnius:
> <snip>
> And Draco (darn it) did not turn out 'bad'. He tried to hide the 
> indetity of Harry and Co. at Malfoy Manor, he tried to moderate the 
> actions of Vincent Crabbe, and he saved the life of Goyle.

Betsy Hp:
Draco dithered.  That's about the best I can say about him.  He 
couldn't be sure about Harry, though he was more sure about Hermione 
and Ron.  And he did his best to make sure Crabbe didn't overstep and 
disobey Voldemort (who apparently never read the Evil Overlord's 
Handbook).  I'd hardly call this the actions of a good guy.

And yes, Draco dragged Goyle along when Crabbe set the room on fire. 
But it was Harry who saved Goyle's life (or actually, Ron and 
Hermione).  Without the Trio's brave actions, Goyle would have died 
by Draco's side.  So again, not a hugely heroic act there.  Not 
enough to redeem himself *and* his house.

> >>zgirnius:
> You are trying to have it both ways. Slytherins are bad, because   
> all the overage students in that House deserted Hogwarts, the side 
> they "should" have been on in the battle. But the Malfoys are also 
> bad, even though they deserted Voldemort, to whom they had given 
> their allegiance.

Betsy Hp:
And I'd say you're trying to have it both ways. <g>  The entire house 
left Hogwarts and joined with Voldemort, but because one or two 
Slytherin characters were sort of okay, or were more worried about 
their own survival than Voldemort's victory, we're supposed to decide 
that the entire house leaving was... window dressing, I guess.

> >>BetsyHP:
> > But I was talking more about villains who did what they did and 
> > Harry needed to understand *why* they did what they did, not find 
> > out they never actually did it in the first place.  In "Ender's   
> > Game" the Buggers really did systematically slaughter every human 
> > they met.

> >>zgirnius:
> In HP, Severus Snape was really the Death Eater who overheard 
> Trelawney's prophecy and really reported it to Voldemort, setting   
> off the chain of events that left Harry an orphan.

Betsy Hp:
And does Harry ever understand *why* Snape did that?

> >>zgirnius:
> Regulus was also really a Death Eater in his day, who really did   
> whatever Death Eater things he did before experiencing his change   
> of heart.

Betsy Hp:
And again, when were we told *why* Regulus joined the Death Eaters in 
the first place.  What was the attraction, what was the thinking?  
Why did Voldemort become so powerful so easily?

> >>zgirnius:
> Harry understands why both of these young men did those things.

Betsy Hp:
Can you share the passage where he explains them then?

> >>zgirnius:
> He also considers it more important that they did have their        
> respective changes of heart and admires what they did about it.    
> Rather like Ender's Game in that, what mattered was that in the end 
> the buggers realized they had been doing wrong and regretted it.

Betsy Hp:
I honestly don't recall any moment in the Potter books where Harry 
allows himself to think like a Slytherin, where he sees and 
understands why Slytherins think the way they do, why the fear of 
Muggles, why the fear of Muggleborns, why the love of cunning and 
ambition.

Buggers are completely alien, and yet Ender begins the story trying 
to understand them, and he ends the story having finally achieved 
that goal.  And he shares his findings with the world.  I don't see 
Harry having done the same.  Frankly, I don't think JKR saw any 
reason for him to do so.  The threat of a powerful Slytherin was 
defeated and it's all as you were.  At least, that's how I saw it.

Betsy Hp