Slytherin as villains / Ender vs. Harry SPOILERS for Ender's Game

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 178948

> > >>zgirnius:
> > You pick two incidents out of an entire series.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Lord, if I could hand-wave DH away, I would. <g> But I can't and so 
> I'm forced to deal with the fact that the story of the House 
rivalry 
> ends with Slytherin leaving Hogwarts and joining with her enemy.  

zgirnius:
No, it does not, because it is by no means the last thing we see 
Slytherins do. The Head of House who leads the Slytherins to safety 
(not Voldemort) returns to fight for Hogwarts, and the (Slytherin) 
Headmaster of the school hands Harry the key to victory, both after 
your 'end'. To the extent that Regulus ("defender of House Elves") 
inspired the Elves of Hogwarts to fight, he affected the battle as 
well, bygone though he was.

> > >>zgirnius:
> > My own view is that Rowling believes things like that 
social       
> > justice starts at home, and our children are the future, and 
all    
> > that jazz. 
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> And some children are more worthy than others, depending on their 
> home life.  Bad parents means bad children.  (If there's something 
> wrong with the bitch, there's something wrong with the pup.)

zgirnius:
Well, I do agree "Bad parents means bad children" is a message of the 
books. (I thought it was also the message of modern sociological 
research, but it is not an area I know much about.) I just think that 
we are looking at the causality differently. 

It seems evident to me that the Slytherin kids we got to know did 
suffer a huge disadvantage compared to some of the other kids in 
terms of their upbringing. For example, James was naturally going to 
pick the 'good' side, as he was brought up to by his parents. Draco, 
while sharing a similar sense of entitlement and arrogance about 
his/his family's preferences, was of course going to pick the 'bad' 
side, for much the same reasons as James.

I thought this was the point of showing us all that about their 
pasts/families. But those that found love somewhere in their lives, 
found the motivation to make changes for the better. 

> Betsy Hp:
>  the 
> disdain expressed towards girls acting like girls,

zgirnius:
I object to 'girls acting like girls'. I always acted like a girl. 
(By definition, it is what I was). I am not at all sure, based on pre-
DH discussion of this topic, that you would agree, possibly a reason 
this would affect us differently.

>> Betsy Hp:
> Draco dithered.  That's about the best I can say about him.  He 
> couldn't be sure about Harry, though he was more sure about 
Hermione 
> and Ron.  And he did his best to make sure Crabbe didn't overstep 
and 
> disobey Voldemort (who apparently never read the Evil Overlord's 
> Handbook).  I'd hardly call this the actions of a good guy.

zgirnius:
I certainly would not call it 'bad to the bone', when Draco's parents 
are hostages for his good (bad, actually <g>) behavior.

>BetsyHp: 
> Without the Trio's brave actions, Goyle would have died 
> by Draco's side.  So again, not a hugely heroic act there.  Not 
> enough to redeem himself *and* his house.

zgirnius:
Oh, so it is only heroic if it works? Firefighters who died in the 
Twin Towers on 9/11 without bringing anyone out of the towers 
successfully are not hugely heroic?

All I'm asking for is 'brave' and 'good', though.

> > >>zgirnius:
> > In HP, Severus Snape was really the Death Eater who overheard 
> > Trelawney's prophecy and really reported it to Voldemort, 
setting   
> > off the chain of events that left Harry an orphan.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> And does Harry ever understand *why* Snape did that?

zgirnius:
In my opinion, yes, or he would not have named a son after him. 
Certainly, he was presented with all of the evidence based on which 
*I* feel *I* understand why Snape did that. (The short answer 
is 'because he was in the service of Voldemort' - the long answer 
would involve understanding *that* earlier choice).
 
> Betsy Hp:
> And again, when were we told *why* Regulus joined the Death Eaters 
in 
> the first place.  What was the attraction, what was the thinking?  
> Why did Voldemort become so powerful so easily?

zgirnius:
We are told. Sirius tells us in OotP, and while I don't consider him 
all that reliable, the evidence of Reg's room bears his story on the 
origins of Reg's interest in Voldemort out. He was the 'good boy', 
who did the things that would make his mother proud.

> Betsy Hp:
> Can you share the passage where he explains them then?

zgirnius:
He doesn't. Nor is he confused when he learns how these two Death 
Eaters ended up. "How could Reg, who was so nice to poor Kreacher, 
and so incredibly brave, have been a Death Eater?" is not a thought 
that crossed Harry's mind, any more than "How could Severus, who so 
loved my Muggleborn Mom, have been a Death Eater?" From which I 
conclude it all made sense to him. 
 
> Betsy Hp:
> I honestly don't recall any moment in the Potter books where Harry 
> allows himself to think like a Slytherin, where he sees and 
> understands why Slytherins think the way they do, why the fear of 
> Muggles, why the fear of Muggleborns, why the love of cunning and 
> ambition.

zgirnius:
I don't believe there is a Slytherin Mind, so Harry's non-
consideration of it never disturbed me. He does reflect on the hate 
of Muggles and where it might have come from in both the cases of Tom 
Riddle and of Severus Snape. And Harry likens his wheedling the 
memory out of Sluggie to Tom's skill in the same activity, in 
favorable terms. 

> Betsy Hp:
> Buggers are completely alien, and yet Ender begins the story trying 
> to understand them, and he ends the story having finally achieved 
> that goal. 

zgirnius:
And since Slytherins are just people, like Harry, it's a lot easier 
for him. 

> Betsy Hp:
> And he shares his findings with the world.  I don't see 
> Harry having done the same.  

zgirnius:
He should have told all assembled at the end of the book "Hey, Folks! 
Slytherins are people too, they are motivated by love and fear and a 
desire to belong and succeed just like us!"? I would think especially 
the adults present would not have found this a shocking revelation.

Individual Slytherins? Whole 'nother story. We saw him vindicate 
Snape. Draco's presence on the train platform in the Epilogue 
suggests to me that he did not wind up in Azkaban for being a DE, 
conspiring to murder Dumbledore, and committing Unforgivables, and 
the most likely way this would come about would be for Harry to speak 
for Draco. I don't imagine he kept quiet about Regulus either, though 
maybe he left that to Kreacher, in between making sandwiches. <g>

I realize I left some points unaddressed. I do appreciate the time 
you took to make them. It is just that I feel other participants in 
this thread have made the same points I would make, only probably 
better.