Slytherin as villains / Ender vs. Harry SPOILERS for Ender's Game

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 178972

> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
  If she meant 
> for us to hear Voldemort's statement as a lie, she'd have told us 
so 
> quite clearly.  At least, that's my opinion. <g>

Alla:

Pippin answered that herself and I totally agree - we have plenty of 
canon for Harry not being able to recognize the lie, while being in 
Voldemort's head, and I do not see why here he suddenly will, BUT as 
I said before I do not care one way or another. If whole bunch of 
Slytherins joined Voldemort, well, they are bad bad bad and I will 
not shed tears for them. Heeee, but don't we have the factual 
evidence that he DID lie already? Draco and his goons did NOT come, 
they stayed, but I just have to stop here :)

Betty Hp: 
> But on to the meaty bit, because I think this is incredibly 
> interesting... <bg>

Alla:

:) 

> Betsy Hp:
> If I understand you correctly, I think we're in agreement up to a 
> point.  Slytherin rises or falls based not on its unknown and for 
the 
> most part faceless student body, but on the actions we actually 
> *see*.  

Alla:

Yep.

Betsy Hp:
And in general, the Slytherin we saw acting was Draco Malfoy.
> 
> And for me, this was fine.  I didn't like the idea of some Johnny-
> come-lately popping out of the herd to be the "good Slytherin".  
For 
> one I thought it'd be kind of boring (why would we care, why would 
> Harry care?) and for another, it wouldn't be enough.  JKR had given 
> us her face of Slytherin and to suddenly turn around and say, "ooh, 
> no that wasn't Slytherin's face at all" would strike me as a cheat.
> 
> But Draco never did step forward, IMO.  And then to cap it all, 
> Slytherin, en masse, stepped back.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Right, sure but here is one of the things we differ, I think. I 
certainly agree that through the books Slytherin we saw acting was 
Draco Malfoy. But while I did not expect unknown good students to pop 
out of nowhere, I also did not expect Draco Malfoy to show his hidden 
goodness either. I mean, he showed more than I expected that's for 
sure.

I guess to make the story short to me the behaviour of Draco Malfoy 
certainly does not make or break the Slytherin's face. What I am 
trying to say is that to me Draco Malfoy was the bad, the horrible, 
the **ugly** face of Slytherin, and while I did not expect no name 
character to be a good Slytherin, I certainly would not mind somebody 
else whom we know to be shown as better Slytherin faces and to me JKR 
delivered it and delivered well.



> Betsy Hp:
> Whereas for me, the story of Snape, Slughorn and Regulus just 
served 
> to illustrate how bad Slytherin as a whole really is.  Slughorn 
> didn't bring one Slytherin back with him to join the fight.  Snape 
> was shown as almost able to rise above the massive error of being a 
> Slytherin. To such an extent Dumbledore was able to say of 
> him "sometimes I think we sort too early".  Not, "you're showing 
the 
> good in Slytherin", just, "gosh, you're almost like a Gryffindor."  
> Which gets further highlighted (IMO) by Harry speaking of Snape's 
> Gryffindor virtue of bravery to Al.

Alla:

Right, well, this is the major difference isn't it? To me those 
stories stand out HUGELY, more than any Gryffindor story except 
Harry, you know?

Stories of amasing bravery, courage, love, etc, etc IMO, so I just 
cannot see artistically how Slytherin is not standing out, you know?

I mean, I do not even connect to Snape on emotional level, but do I 
not see how much he changed? IMO he did.

Slughorn's story who found courage in himself also resonates with me, 
etc.

So, yeah, despite Slytherins leaving, what I remember are those 
stories, you know?


Betsy Hp: 
> But I'm wondering now if our different reactions are based on 
> different expectations?  So where you were pleasantly surprised 
that 
> *any* Slytherins turned out to be decent, I was horribly shocked 
that 
> this was it.  Does that sound right?

Alla:

YES, it is quite right. Let me say it again, I am SO not bothered, if 
at the end of the story Slytherins will be done and over with. I 
mean, I would be like - WHATEVER, she needed bad guys, she created 
bad guys. Villains in fairy tales do not get healing and redemption. 
I am so fine with fairy tale reading of the ending.

But that is just not what I see in the text. I went with pretty much 
this expectation in the last book and OMG, what I saw totally 
exceeded my expectations.

Slytherin ideology ugliness IMO was not supposed to be shown as 
anything else but ugly, but she shown me that quite a few Slytherins 
overcame it ( Okay, three, I count Andromeda, so four), while IMO 
remaining Slytherins to the bone.

I loved it, I really did. But yes, I certainly did not expect much of 
Slytherin House and got more than I bargained for in a very good way.




 
Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> So there was never a moment, that I saw, where a Slytherin, with 
his 
> or her Slytherin virtues, looked at Voldemort and said, "this goes 
> against what I believe in."  Which disappointed me. Especially 
after 
> having so many Slytherins look at Voldemort and say, "Yeah, that 
> seems about right."  So the personal (very personal) actions of a 
> few, didn't do anything for their house overall for me.
><SNIP>


Alla:

But isn't it exactly what Regulus did? I said many times how I feel 
about his story, so really not trying to convince you, but it just 
feels that his story is so much more than personal reasons IMO of 
course.

And Snape, by the time he died IMO too ( OMG, I defend Snape again. 
I. Defend. Snape.) Again, I still hate the bastard, but I thought he 
indeed grew to believe in right things.

IMO of course.