[HPforGrownups] Re: Fathers (was: A message?)

[Kemper]

No: HPFGUIDX 178979

> Kemper wrote:
>  > Even though we only have CrouchJr's words of his father, the words
>  > that we do have /to/ his father is suggestive of the relationship he
>  > had with his father. You already provided some of the text, but right
>  > before it, there's:
>  > "Father... Father... please..."
>  > Then:
>  > "Father, I didn't! I didn't, I swear it, Father, ...--"
>  >
>  > Using 'Father', seems formal, cold, and distant to me. Though,
>  > perhaps JKR was using 'father' to suggest a different, upper(?) class.
>  <snip>
>
>  Carol responded:
>  ...
>  It appears from the brief glimpse we
>  get in "The Madness of Mr. Crouch" that Crouch Sr. did at one point
>  love his son and have high hopes for him. He speaks of celebrating his
>  son's twelve OWLs and tells the imaginary "Weatherby" that he's "very
>  proud indeed" (GoF Am. ed. 556).


Kemper now:
It could be that Mr. Crouch loved his son; however, the quote from GoF
you refer to does not suggest that to me.  First, expressions of pride
are not actions of love.  The full quote:
"Yes, my son has recently gained twelve O.W.L.s, most satisfactory,
yes, thank you, yes, very proud indeed."

If the expression of pride was directed at his son rather than
whomever the mad Mr. Crouch is talking to, I would be more sympathetic
toward Mr. Crouch as father.  I read the quote, initially and now, as
Mr. Crouch showing off a prized object rather than an adored son.

This seems to be the case, when later, after Master Barty is
administered the Veritaserum, he states of his escape from Azkaban:
"She persuaded my father to rescue me as a last favor to her.  He
loved her as he had never loved me."
This statement suggests to me that Master Barty longed for expressions
of his father's love.


>  Carol:
>  Something happened between the end of Barty Jr.'s fifth year and the
>  Crucioing of the Longbottoms when he was about nineteen to tempt this
>  obviously talented and intelligent boy to join the Death Eaters and,
>  in contrast to Snape and Regulus, become a fanatical follower willing
>  to engage in horrific acts to find information on his missing master.
>  It's no coincidence, IMO, that his attitude and even his words
>  resemble Bellatrix's. They shared a fascination with and devotion to
>  the greatest Dark Wizard for a hundred years (or so he's viewed in the
>  British WW).

Kemper now:
Bellatrix and Barty do seem equally fanatical.
But Bellatrix seems like she was always evil while Barty came into it
late.  Barty seems like someone who joined a cult at the cusp of
adulthood, while Bellatrix seems like she was born and reared in it.
Does that make sense?


>  Carol:
>  Did bad fathering create Barty Jr., changing him from a talented boy
>  with a bright future into a monster? Or did Barty Jr. choose the DEs
>  thinking that he would find glory and scope for his talents there
>  despite knowing that his father opposed Dark Magic and was authorizing
>  his DEs to use every available weapon against Voldemort? Did those
>  stringent measures arise *because* Barty Sr. suspected that his son
>  had joined the DEs against his will? Or did the bad fathering occur
>  *after* the father foolishly rescued the son (as the result of the
>  boy's mother's pleas) rather than letting him die in Azkaban?

Kemper now:
I don't think that bad fathering created DE Barty Jr, but I do think
in contributed to him.
Regulus' parents seemed to love their son based on Sirius' statements
(of which I have not looked up the canon, so I may be wrong).  DE
Regulus was not as fanatical as DE Barty.

Perhaps DE Barty has to be so fanatical because if he wasn't, it would
mean he would have to see a truth within the DE'st: Voldemort shows
love to no one.

Kemper, who pities the Master Barty that could have been