Umbridge/Madam Bones/House Elves/Why Join DEs?/Amos/The Elder Wand

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 179007

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178847>:

<< I suspect that Umbridge is at least in part a savage caricature of
Margaret Thatcher, but not being British (or particularly interested
in politics), I can't be sure. >>

I recall a speaker at a convention stating that it was utterly obvious
to all British readers that Aunt Marge was Margaret Thatcher.

<< the powerful and incorruptible Amanda Bones >>

Amelia?

I don't recall any canon that she isn't just as 'slightly corrupted'
as Arthur Weasley. Okay, she didn't get tickets to the Top Box at the
Quidditch World Cup because we didn't see her there (or did we, and
just not recognize her yet?). But maybe she got some other perk for
dismissing a case against someone's relative who had done something
trivial that didn't really deserve to be prosecuted, but no one is
dismissing the cases against unconnected people who did something
trivial that doesn't deserve to be prosecuted.

Bruce wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178878>:

<< And what if, originally, [House Elves] had been animals who had
been enhanced by wizards to be the "hewers of wood and drawers of
water"? >>

Once they've been enhanced to a level of intelligence and feelings,
they deserve to be treated as beings that have that level of
intelligence and feelings.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178900>:

<< Full freedom for the House-Elves is neither possible nor desirable
until the House-Elves have some alternative to serving human masters
and make their desire for such an alternative known. >>

(Yes, I read your whole post.) As I said before, *Free* House Elves
can serve human employers, if the House Elf and the human agree. I
don't think it would be the end of the world if the employers were
called 'master' and 'mistress', as long as they aren't called 'owner'.
If the current owners of House Elves can't bear to humble themselves
to sign a contract with a mere Elf, I'm sure there are plenty of other
wizards and witches who would be more than glad to do so. 

Maybe some House Elves would have to humble themselves a little, or
else do without a human to serve: remember Ron saying that House Elves
only work in big castles and mansions? Steve bboy_minn suggested that
was because they wanted to work in places they were proud of; they
were too snobby to work in small cottages and urban flats.

Mike Crudele wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178920>:

<< They were a motley collection; a mixture of the weak seeking
protection, the ambitious seeking some shared glory, and the thuggish
gravitating toward a leader who could show them more refined forms of
cruelty." >>

Dumbledore should have mentioned the gullible, deceived by his charm.

Lucius Malfoy is one of the ambitious, altho' arrogantly seeking more
than *shared* glory: he thinks that by helping LV to become King of
Wizards, himself will be the power behind the Throne. Maybe 'shared
glory' was the most there was to be gained at Hogwarts by the
ambitious, altho' I'm sure he could have attracted some more students
as followers by hinting that he knew spells to make them score almost
as well as he did on their OWLs and NEWTs. 

In adult life, there are more things to be ambitious for; I mentioned
power in the case of Lucius. Money, promotions, and concubines are
other popular ambitions in real life. Someone might hope that if he
was a loyal servant to the Dark Lord, maybe the Dark Lord would order
Mulciber the Imperius specialist to Imperio some beautiful girls to be
the loyal servant's sex slaves. That might apply at school if Riddle
was believed to know how to cast Imperius on people without getting
caught.

The older Crabbe and Goyle are presumably thugs attracted to the
opportunity to beat people up and so on without punishment, altho' I
like to think they were equally motivated by an inherited obedience to
Lucius. Macnair was looking for a place to practise his avocation as a
serial killer. 

Bellatrix doesn't fit neatly into this pattern: she was quite capable
of thinking up her own more refined forms of cruelty, and expected her
family status to protect her from any punishment, but she fell in love
with LV because his evil deeds aroused her. 

Regulus apparently joined for increasing pureblood power. I'd call
that ideology rather than ambition, and acknowledge that Riddle wasn't
pushing bloodist ideology as a half-blood student.

I'm not sure we know why Severus joined the Death Eaters. He may have
been following his friends, a motive which DD didn't list. If he was
motivated by hatred of Muggles, that's another motive DD didn't list
(but it may not have been relevant when Riddle was a schoolboy).

Maybe, as Potioncat wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178944>: <<
[Snape] was attracted to the freedom to study Dark Arts >>. Would
wanting to learn more and more be included under ambition, ambitious
for knowledge rather than shared glory? I suppose wanting to praised
for his skills is a form of ambition.

Maybe he joined the Death Eaters so it would give him an opportunity
to get revenge on James and James's friends and Dumbledore who sided
with James & co. That's a motive that could also apply to school-
children -- if I cozy up to Tom Riddle, maybe he'll turn so-and-so
into a giant warty slug for me.

In my mind, several young wizards (and it could have happened to young
witches, too, except I don't know if any females were allowed to be
Death Eaters except Bellatrix) were literally seduced into joining the
Death Eaters, purred at by a Mata-Hari-like witch or wizard for days
or weeks until they were tripping over their own tongues and unable to
think anything but 'I want to join any club that *you* are in'.

Listies have pointed out how Barty Jr was as obsessively devoted to LV
as Bellatrix was. Except that I read him loving LV as a replacement
father rather than as a lover. I don't know how Barty Jr came to feel
that way. Even if he started by seeking out Death Eaters to join in
order to do what his father most opposed, something must have made him
so fanatic.

Potioncat wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178924>:

<< Amos and Arthur are the only two positive fathers we really see.
Although some will disagree with how Arthur treated Percy. >>

Amos was socially crude, bragging about his son, thus embarrassing his
son who had higher-class manners than to brag. That may indicate that
Rowling intended Amos to be less good than Arthur.

I thought quite a bit about it when GoF was the latest book, and
concluded that I don't know if Amos, who loved the excellent Cedric so
much, would have still loved him if he gave Dad less to brag about --
if he was, say, like Neville.

Incidentally, at that time, some listies praised Arthur and condemned
Amos for their attitudes to House Elves, based on: << "Elf!" said Mr
Diggory sternly. "Do you know who I am? I'm a member of the Department
for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures!"

Winky began to rock backwards and forwards on the ground, her breath
coming in sharp bursts. Harry was reminded forcibly of Dobby in his
moments of terrified disobedience.

"As you see, elf, the Dark Mark was conjured here a short while ago,"
said Mr Diggory. "And you were discovered moments later, right beneath
it! An explanation, if you please!" >>

versus: << "Winky?" he said kindly, turning to the elf, but she
flinched as though he, too, was shouting at her. "Where exactly did
you find Harry's wand?" >>

I like Arthur and have my doubts about Amos, but that scene strongly
reminded me of an interrogation technique called 'bad cop, good cop',
in which one investigator is rude and scary and threatening to the
suspect, and the other investigator speaks gently and tells the first
one to tone it down, thus appearing as a rescuer to the suspect, who
then trustingly tells all to the 'good cop'.

sdcjjack wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/178987>:

<< When I read that the master of the Elder Wand could not be defeated >>

That's not exactly what they said. In the fairy tale itself, someone
killed the first brother while he was sleeping (with a knife, not
magic) and took the wand, thus becoming master of the wand until the
next person killed him. Someone (Xenophilius?) spoke of it leaving a
bloody trail of murders across wizarding history.

When we first, with Harry, saw Gregorovitch's memory in LV's head, of
the merry-faced blond thief, who perched in the window waiting for
Gregorovitch to see him, then Stunned Gregorovitch and jumped out of
the window, I wondered why he waited to be seen instead of making his
escape undetected. After I had learned a lot more about what it was
that he stole, I realized that he had waited so he could 'defeat'
Gregorovitch in a way that the wand would understand, so that he would
be its master. 

Then I was impressed that he had Stunned Gregorovitch instead of
killing him. That argues that he was either more kind-hearted than Tom
Riddle (avoiding unneccessary killing) or more practical (realizing
that his kingdom would need a wand-maker).

The fairy tale said that the wand could not be defeated, so it makes
sense that these guys defeated the owner of the wand when he was not
holding it. But suddenly, in Harry's case, it changed to The Owner of
the wand could not be defeated in a duel, which is quite different.