Slytherin as villains / Ender vs. Harry SPOILERS for Ender's Game

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 179049

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Zara" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
>
> > lizzyben:
> > Sorry if this was already brought up, but if LV was lying, how 
> would 
> > he know that Draco was still in the castle? 
> 
> zgirnius:
> LV does not know Draco is in the castle. He says, and I quote, "He 
> did not come and join me, like the rest of the Slytherins. Perhaps 
he 
> has decided to befriend Harry Potter?" All this means about 
Draco's 
> location, is the rather obvious fact that he is not there with 
> Voldemort. Voldemort knows this by the evidence of his own five 
> senses.

lizzyben:

No, he's telling Lucius that Draco is still at the site of the 
battle, Hogwarts castle. The scene is described: "The sounds of the 
assault on the castle were muffled and distant. ... 'My Lord... 
please... my son...." "If your son is dead, Lucius, it is not my 
fault. He did not come and join me, like the rest of the 
Slytherins." Malfoy then begs LV to stop the battle & go to Hogwarts 
himself to get Potter (presumably so that he can go as well to find 
Draco). This scene tells the Malfoys that Draco is still within the 
castle, which leads to Narcissa's betrayal & their desperate search 
of the castle in the midst of battle. So Lucius understands from 
LV's statement that Draco is still at Hogwarts.

And what I'm saying is, how does Voldemort know this? You say that 
LV knows this by the evidence of his own five senses - how would LV 
*have* that evidence unless the evacuated students had come to his 
camp & he had the chance to notice that Draco was not there with 
them?

> > lizzyben:
> > If 
> > the evacuated Slytherin students didn't go over to his camp, how 
> > would LV know that Draco wasn't among them? 
> 
> zgirnius:
> Where does it say Voldemort knows Draco us not among evacuated 
> SLytherins?

lizzyben:

Voldemort says that. The scene takes place as underage students (and 
all Slytherins) are evacuating from Hogwarts to the tavern. LV 
says "He did not come and join me, like the rest of the Slytherins." 
This tells us that 1.) LV knows that the Slytherin students have 
left Hogwarts and 2.) LV knows that Draco was not among the 
evacuating students. How would he know this? Well, if the evacuated 
Slytherin students all came over to his camp, as he says they did, 
he would have a chance to know both of these facts. It's 
corraborating evidence that LV's statement is true. If he were just 
making stuff up, there's no way he could know that Draco wasn't 
among the evacuated students. 

zgirnius:
> *If* he does, the students could have been seen by a DE patrolling 
> Hogsmeade. Or, it could be that, even though we saw neither hide 
nor 
> hair of such a person, *a* Slytherin joined Voldemort and reported 
it 
> (this could also happen by the alternative of *a* Slytherin 
student 
> being captured during the evacuation attempt, and exercising 
his/her 
> cunning by feigning relief s/he has reached the 'right side').

lizzyben:

This is more plausible alternate scenario. I could buy the Death 
Eater spy idea, or the lone Slytherin mole who joins LV's camp to 
report information. The problem with that is I can't really see LV 
bothering with a spy just to report if Draco is there/not there, and 
a lone Slytherin kid probably can't say with certainty if Draco left 
before or after him. The only way LV could be sure of this is if 
every other evacuated Slytherin joined his camp, as he says that 
they did. 

zgirnius:
 Or, 
> and this is what I consider most likely, Voldemort was, as has 
been 
> suggested, *lying*. If he enjoys making Lucius suffer, not 
alerting 
> him to the possibility that Draco was evacuated from the castle to 
a 
> neutral location would be a fine way to do it.
> 
> And, as has been pointed out, LV's statement to Lucius, because it 
> includes the phrase 'like the rest of the Slytherins', is false. 
> Crabbe never left the castle.

lizzyben:

This is not plausible to me. Because if LV was lying, it had the 
incredible coincidence of also being true. Draco in fact did not 
leave the castle with all the other Slytherins; He, Crabbe & Goyle 
remained at Hogwarts. Let's say LV has no idea what happened & is 
just making stuff up to torment Lucius. He decides to lie & state 
that Draco hasn't evacuated & might die in the battle, not realizing 
that his lie is in fact the actual truth. First of all, that's a 
pretty big coincidence. Second of all, LV's manner is far too casual 
for this to be a huge whopper he's telling Lucius - Lucius brings up 
Draco first, & LV cooly says that it's not his fault if Draco died 
as Draco was foolish enough not to join him as the other Slytherins 
did. It's all very matter-of-fact, because it is actually a fact.

Crabbe has no relevance at all, for one simple reason: LV doesn't 
know what Crabbe looks like. He does know what Draco looks like, 
because he's been living in the Malfoy's house for months, he 
inducted Draco into the Death Eaters, he gave Draco his HBP 
assignment, etc etc. So, if a sea of evacuated Slytherin students 
immediately join his side, he can look over the crowd and think "Ah, 
no Draco. I shall torment Lucius with this information." He's not 
going to do an exact head count "Ah, there are sixty-five students, 
so based on JKR's contradicting statements about the number of 
students, that means that 2-6 Slytherins aren't here..." 

And even if LV did notice somehow that other students are missing, 
it's not relevant to the conversation. The conversation is about 
Draco, & LV tells Lucius that Draco didn't join him with the other 
evacuated Slytherins, and so is still in danger during the battle. 
Lucius doesn't care about Crabbe, Goyle, etc. So, I'd consider it 
plausible if some other Slytherin students didn't join LV's camp. 
But I think it's *most* plausible that the evacuated Slytherin kids 
did join his camp. That's corraborated by LV's statement, supporting 
evidence, & the lack of any reversal in this information by the end 
of the novel. Really, the only reason to think it's not true is that 
we'd hate to think that every Slytherin child joined LV's side. 

I'm just puzzled that people would argue with such certainty that LV 
was lying to Lucius, when the "lie" about Draco's absence is 
actually true. LV's statement is never contradicted in canon, and no 
one discovers "oh, wait, the Slytherin kids *didn't* go over to LV's 
side! Wow!" Finally, because that statement is never revealed to be 
a lie by the end of the book, it's canon. It's JKR's way of making 
sure we know that Slytherins really, really suck. I really doubt 
that a kid reading DH will think, "Voldemort is obviously lying 
here, since Crabbe is still within Hogwarts, and possibly he had a 
DE stationed to tell him that Draco isn't with the evacuated 
Slytherins." Instead, IMO most readers will conclude: "The other 
Slytherins joined Voldemort, because Slytherins are bad guys." It's 
the simplest reading, the one supported by canon, & one that is 
never contradicted within the book. 

It almost seems like people are arguing against the book because 
they don't like what it says. And I'm all for subversive or 
contradictory readings, but it is going against author intent IMO. 
It's like arguing that Harry decided to free Kreacher after asking 
for a sandwich, or Albus Severus will be a good Slytherin, etc. 
Sure, it's *possible*, but it's not in the book. Because JKR didn't 
put it there. In this case, she chose to include LV saying that all 
the evacuated Slytherin students joined his side, and chose not to 
reveal that that was a lie. I think she did this to let readers know 
that the Slytherin students are just as bad as McGonegal thought 
they were, and as a plot point to allow the Malfoys to learn Draco's 
actual location.


lizzyben