Slytherin as villains / Ender vs. Harry SPOILERS for Ender's Game

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 179104

> > Betsy Hp:
> > No Zara, they can't. In fanfic? Sure. But to argue that
*within*
> > the text there's an unremarked Slytherin who comes back and
fights
> > for Hogwarts is insupportable because there is no text
supporting
> it.
>
> zgirnius:
> There is a statement by the portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black
that
> people must not forget, Slytherin played its part too
(paraphrase).
> I'm certain he meant those students! <bg>

Magpie:
I love that line, because it's perfectly well chosen (and of course
I don't think he's referring to non-existant students that un-write
the ideas given in the text over and over). They *played* their
part. As a house they didn't *do* their part. The ones who did their 
part at all are special cases, and even they also supported 
Voldemort's rise before having personal reasons to act against him. 
Despite themselves, Slytherins were instrumental in the victory. 
Just as Gollum had a part to play in the destruction of the Ring.

Zara;
>
> I am not suggesting Slytherins did come back. I am merely stating
> that your position seems about as reasonable to me. There is a
total
> absence in the relevant parts of the text, which are the battle
> scenes, of any Slytherin students fighting for either side. Nor
does
> anyone report having seen Slytherin students fighting on either
side,
> or having knowledge that Slytherin students were fighting for
either
> side. Which is why I believe, da da dum, no Slytherin students
were
> fighting for either side.

Magpie:
Me too. They went to Voldemort, as Voldemort says, but that doesn't
mean they fought in the battle. They're traitors, but not Death
Eaters. (Incidentally, referring to Random's point, I don't think of
Voldemort as a big liar generally. He certainly will lie for his
purposes, but he doesn't lie to his followers much that I remember.
He lied as Tom Riddle but as Voldemort he's pretty straightforward.
And I think the idea that he's lying in this moment makes little
sense. He seems to have stopped lying at all in DH, and I can't see
how or why he'd be lying about what he's saying to Lucius here.)

> > Betsy Hp:
> > She may not have meant for the Slytherins students to fight.
That
> > would have shown a certain perverse bravery after all. <g> But
in
> > the same token, I find it hard to believe that JKR meant to
redeem
> > Slytherin house and then failed to mention it. <RBG>
>
> zgirnius:
> Her hero, her golden boy, can honestly say to his son when it is
all
> over, that it will not matter to him in the slightest if his son
> winds up in that house. To me, this is a statement that the house
is
> one good people can come out of. Is that redemption for Slytherin
> House? I have no idea. Redepemtion is a notion I ascribe to
> individuals, not dormitories.

Magpie:
I think it's clearly a statement of support of his son. He loves him
no matter what he does, no matter what house he's in. He's his
father--what kind of father would reject his son based on what House
he was Sorted into? It's also an easy enough statement for Harry to
make that requires very little respect for Slytherin. Al is a little
Tiny Tim who's so good at heart he's already frightened that the Hat
might look into his heart and see a little Slytherin there, and he's
heroic dad can of course tell him the solution to that, since he
went to Hogwarts with the same fear and knows that will make the hat
put you somewhere else. There's no real fear that Al will end up in
Slytherin. Slytherin students have been fairly easily spotted
throughout canon through a couple of different traits and Al has
none of them. If you're afraid of being an icky Slytherin, you're
not a Slytherin by definition.

I think this is far more about Harry being a great guy than
Slytherin being a great house. In fact the whole of Harry's hatred
of Slytherin/Slytherins was dropped in the last book. They were the
bad guys, but Harry no longer had much personal against them just in
time for the reveal with Snape. I remember a great thread on the
group pre-DH about Jane Austen and the important moment of Lizzie
realizing she'd been wrong about Darcy. Some on the list thought
Lizzie was never really that wrong, others thought the whole point
was Lizzie realizing how her prejudice had made her behave. If JKR
was thinking of P&P at all, she seems to have had the former
reading. Yeah, Harry was wrong, but there was no need for any
personal crisis for Harry.

> zgirnius:
> I don't. If anything, I saw McGonagall's outburst as an
extenuating
> circumstance.
>
> And, what guilt? None of the students who left are shown doing
> anything objectionable thereafter. They left. Like assorted
students
> from other houses.

Magpie:
Yes, I think the only objectionable bit is their not taking place in
the battle where the brave and true would be, if they're of age.