Harry as godfather (Was: Sirius Black's role in DH -- why?)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 179233

zgirnius:
> To all who have leapt gallantly to the defense of Sirius Black 
> against my accusations, I have two responses.
> First, a lukewarm defense of Albus.  Save Harry, ask questions 
> afterwards is the policy I suggest he pursued. 
<snip>

Dana:
I think your are missing the point of the argument. The argument was 
about if Sirius' reckless decision of going after Peter was the 
primary cause that he lost his guardianship over Harry and it wasn't. 
It doesn't matter if DD came to a conclusion that Sirius must have 
been guilty of killing Peter and the 12 muggles because that hadn't 
happened yet. 

The decision to place Harry with the Dursleys had been made right at 
the moment of the Potters death and before anyone could have done 
anything. Not even Sirius going to DD would have made any difference 
to the decision DD had already made, because Sirius found out about 
the Potters death only when he arrived at the scene and Hagrid was 
already there to take Harry. 

That DD found no cause to find out if Sirius really was guilty of the 
crimes he was accused off had no influence on his decision making to 
place Harry with the Dursleys. Sirius already knew he could not get 
Harry after Hagrid repeatedly refused to give Harry up to him. It was 
the loss of Harry that made him decide to go after Peter. 

The argument, at least not from my point of view, is not about DD 
saving Sirius from being innocently locked up in Azkaban but about if 
Sirius recklessness was at fault of him losing Harry as Carol stated 
in the post I replied to. And I do not agree that Sirius going after 
Peter is what made Sirius lose Harry because he had lost Harry before 
he ever went after Peter. 
Again the argument is not if DD could have done anything to prevent 
Sirius going to Azkaban because I don't think Sirius really cared 
that much of what was going to happen to him next and he WAS going 
after Peter with the intention to kill him and probably already 
embraced the fact of either dying or being sent to Azkaban in the 
process. 

My problem with DD is that he made a decision about Harry's life 
before he knew about any of the particulars of what happened that 
night and why and later claimed that he knew James so very well but 
still he made a decision based on assumptions instead of facts and 
his decision to intervene without making it absolutely sure that 
Sirius was the one who had betrayed the Potters was what caused 
Sirius and Harry the loss of one another. What happened after that is 
totally irrelevant to the part of Sirius I was defending and the part 
of DD I was rejecting. 

zgirnius:
> Sirius's best (surviving) friend in the world believed him guilty. 
> I will not blame Albus for concurring.
<snip> 

Dana:
Lupin specifically stated that after it was assumed that Sirius 
killed Peter and with Fudge's statements on the witness accounts of 
what happened when Sirius and Peter faced off, was what left him with 
no other possibility to believe it to be true. The problem still is 
that Harry was already with the Dursleys when this happened. 
The moment Lupin saw Peter on the map and thus make this claim 
unlikely to be true, he instantly changed his mind about the 
possibility of Sirius betraying the Potters too. 

Sirius behavior throughout PoA was entirely based on the notion that 
he could never be close to Harry anyway and therefore his only 
prerogative was to take out the possible treat to Harry's life. It 
was only when he faced Harry that the thought occurred to him that he 
really would like for Harry to know the truth about what had 
occurred, not so much to clear himself and get himself proven 
innocent but because he considered it important in regards to James' 
memory and thus to Harry. It was only when Lupin arrived on the scene 
and Harry's acknowledgment in believing his claim to be true that it 
occurred to him that he might be able to have a relationship with 
Harry as a free man and thus why he offered Harry a home. 

I do not blame DD for Sirius being locked up innocently in relation 
to the Pettigrew show down, but I do blame DD for giving testimony 
while he never so much took the time to actually find out if what he 
gave testimony too was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth and he didn't. I do blame DD for not making absolutely sure 
that Sirius really was the one who betrayed the Potters before he cut 
Sirius out of Harry's life and hand him over to the Dursleys. If he 
didn't owe it to Sirius to find out the absolute truth then he surely 
owed it to Harry. 


zgirnius:
> Second, Albuys could be worse than Voldemort at his most heartless, 
> it is irrelevant. I judge Sirius by what he knew, and what he did 
> about it. Either he believed Albus to be the leader of the Order 
> and someone who would protect Harry (in which case, he acted 
> irresponsibly by haring off without letting Albus know the truth), 
> and thereby doomed himself to Azkaban and Harry to the Dursleys.
<snip>

Dana:
You judge Sirius unfairly for the simple fact that no matter what he 
knew, he could not have done anything about it in relation to what 
would happen to Harry because the decision was already made before he 
even knew himself that the Potters had died. 
The truth actually didn't matter after DD already had taken Harry 
away from him because the truth in itself would not have made a 
difference to what had already been decided upon after the fact. The 
truth only mattered before the decision was made and Sirius never was 
given that chance because the moment he found out the Potters were 
death, the decision to place Harry with his aunt already had 
transpired. 

In my view you are twisting events around to exonerate DD for making 
a decision about Harry's life were it was not his to make. A decision 
on what would be best for Harry could only have been made if all the 
facts would have been known and DD didn't bother to found them out 
and made his decision based on the assumption that because LV had 
gotten to the Potters it was therefore Sirius who had betrayed them 
as he was the known secret keeper at that time. These are not facts 
but assumptions about the facts. 

In my opinion when you make such a life altering decision you owe it 
to the person you alter the life from to be sure that you have based 
your decision on the absolute facts and truths before you disregard 
any other violable options in your decision making. DD did not give 
Sirius any chance to defend his position as Harry's guardian and just 
because Sirius was afterwards accused of another crime is utterly 
irrelevant to the matter at hand. 

It was DD who cut Sirius out of Harry's life by not even trying to 
find out if Sirius actually was guilty of betraying the Potters and 
not Sirius decision to go after Peter. 
Of course one could ask the question would Sirius really have gone 
after Peter if he had been given a fair chance to explain what had 
transpired before Harry was indefinitely shipped off to the Dursleys? 
I think he would not but still I do not hold DD responsible for 
Sirius' actions blowing up in his own face as it did. 

zgirnius:
> Or, he had the same opinion as some posters here, that Albus is a 
> manipulative bastard, in which case his action was even more 
> reckless and irresponsible. It left poor Harry defenseless and in 
> the hands of that vile puppetmaster for over a decade. The right 
> move in my voew would have been to publicize the truth about Peter 
> to all who would listen, to force and investigation, and to get 
> himself cleared, so that he could claim custody of Harry, or at 
> least keep an eye on him and be a presence in  his life.
<snip>

Dana:
Again Sirius trying to proof his innocents after Harry had already 
been shipped off to the Dursleys would not have made any difference 
on the decision that was already made about Harry's life. It doesn't 
even matter if Sirius gave up on Harry because he might believe it to 
be the best thing for Harry and thus why he never made an effort to 
prove his innocence. Who would believe him anyway? He wasn't given a 
trial and no one stood up for him and it wasn't really likely he 
could make contact with the outside world to do what you propose he 
should have done. It is not like there are lawyers running around in 
the WW he could have contacted to make a case for him. 

Anyway what mattered is that before Harry was shipped off to the 
Dursleys, DD should have consulted Sirius and make absolutely sure 
that Sirius had in fact betrayed Harry's parents if not then DD 
should have stepped aside and let Sirius take care of Harry as was 
his parents wish. If this would have really mattered to DD he would 
have taken the time to find out but he didn't because it didn't 
matter. He says so himself that he preferred Harry to be placed with 
the Dursleys to prevent Harry growing up as a pampered prince. Harry 
during the time he was at the Dursleys (before he came to Hogwarts) 
was never in danger from LV because LV was a helpless vapor somewhere 
in the woods of Albania which DD knew perfectly well. He wanted Harry 
out of the WW unaware of the faith bestowed before him and thus out 
of Sirius hands. 

It don't think DD was very sorry to see Sirius being shipped off to 
Azkaban and out of the way because now he would be one less obstacle 
to overcome. Like Alla said (only in a different context) if Sirius 
had gotten wind of the ill treatment Harry got to endure he would not 
have allowed it to continue and had stepped in but Azkaban was quite 
an insurance to DD that he would never be able to. 

zgirnius:
> I would love it if someone could point to some canon basis for the 
> (apparently popular) opinion that Albus would not hesitate to 
> knowingly destroy the life of an innocent human being if it served 
> his purposes or his vision of "the greater good". Personally, I 
> cannot wrap my mind around this view.

Dana:
That what I have argued about above was my initial reaction to DD 
confession to Harry at the end of OotP and I tried my hardest to see 
it differently that DD had made an honest mistake of thinking Sirius 
to be the one who betrayed Harry's Parents. The problem is that DH 
not only shows a DD actually knowing everything that has transpired 
over the course of Harry's life but actually giving Snape the 
assignment to betray the Order so Snape would be assigned headmaster. 
Moody died because of that betrayal and it was seen as justified so 
Snape could execute DD's plans for Hogwarts. In hindsight I can see 
it as perfectly true that DD sacrificed the truth in order for him to 
go ahead with the plans he had for Harry and so he did. 

But to summarize it one more time, it was not Sirius reckless 
decision to go after Peter that made him lose his connection to Harry 
for 12 years. We see that Lupin lost his connection to Harry equally 
and he wasn't sent to Azkaban and he wasn't accused of betraying the 
Potters. 
Sirius came to his decision to go after Peter AFTER he was perfectly 
made aware that he was cut out of Harry's life; at that time it 
wasn't even known to Sirius that LV wasn't really gone and that he 
might come back so the only thing he saw fit left to do is take out 
the man that destroyed the lives of his family, which might be 
considered reckless but honest to ghod understandable under the 
circumstances.  

JMHO

Dana