Moody's death (was: Dumbledore's authority WAS: Re: Fees for Harry)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 179478

a_svirn:
> I don't know. Do you? Personally I find it most improbable that any 
> sane person would join an organisation under such terms. No doubt 
> the Dark Lord thought his death eaters and their nearest and 
> dearest *expendable*, but the good guys are supposed to be 
> different, aren't they? Being ready and even eager to risk your 
> life is not the same thing as being *expendable*. If you appreciate 
> the distinction. 
> 
> As for Fletcher, it is painfully obvious that he does *not* want to 
> sacrifice himself. He is compelled to do so by the other members of 
> the Order. Because they think him expendable. Which is not only 
> immoral, but also stupid, because force and compulsion can only 
> help so far. Surely after the Kreacher debacle they shoul have 
> learned their lesson? If Moody wanted to get rid of the most 
> unreliable member of the order he would have done better to simply 
> kill him. It would have been just as immoral but far more 
> practical. 
<snip>

Dana:
Well I agree no one would join an organization with the idea that you 
are just an expendable element and I agree that being prepared to 
risk your life is not the same as being considered expendable but I 
do not agree with the idea that no one would accept the dangers of 
joining an organization that could appose a threat to your life. All 
members of that organization know perfectly well that being part of 
this group could be a potential threat. You can only join such an 
organization if you are prepared to sacrifice your life for it, 
because there is simply no way of telling who is going to end up 
death next and there are no guarantees that it wouldn't be you.  

So in this sense I do not agree with your conclusion that the Order 
used Fletcher as canon folder because he was not willing to sacrifice 
his life. He did willingly join the Order and with it came the 
dangers of being the next in line, he was even a member of said Order 
in the first war. No one made him join, he did so out of his own free 
will. Even if it was just out of loyalty to DD than still this would 
mean that he WAS prepared to sacrifice his life for said Order merely 
by joining them at all. 

Secondly he was very willing in accepting the Orders protection (even 
if it was just for his illegal doings), he was very willing to accept 
DD's help in sticky situations but when it comes to the Order 
depending on him, they all suddenly should understand that Fletcher 
actually never wanted any part of the Order because he didn't want to 
sacrifice his life for the cause. How? How could they have known 
this? 

He was present at Order meetings and in the case we are specifically 
discussing here, he was the one that came with this plan in the first 
place. So it would be okay for him to contribute in this plan by 
offering the idea to begin with but the Order members are cruel for 
actually making him partake in it too because it could be a danger to 
his personal safety? All Order Members risk their life's in this plan 
which he brought to the table. They do not know he was coerced in 
offering this plan. They didn't know that the plan was actually a 
trap waiting for them. What they did know is that Fletcher was 
willing to be part of this plan by coming up with it himself.  

So it is okay for the individual members of the Order to risk their 
butts for Fletcher but they should not expect him to do the same 
thing for them? In organizations like these, members are entirely 
dependent on one another and they should be able to count on every 
single member in equal terms as the other members count on them. 
Besides being prepared to accept the consequential dangers of being 
part of such an organization is not the same thing as wanting to die. 
None of them wanted to die, no one expected LV to show up personally 
or that the DE would show up in such large numbers. They expected 
some DE's to be on the look out and that they could easily overcome 
them if it came to fighting them. In this sense Dung got the safest 
bet with one of the most experienced fighters of the group, just as 
Hermione did with Kingsley. 

Although we do not actually know how a cunfonding charm works, it 
does seem very reasonable to me that Dung actually knew that he got 
the information from Snape, who is at that time believed to have 
killed DD and thus a loyal DE. So in this sense it seems to me that 
Dung's actually hesitations came from this knowledge although he 
probably doesn't know what he was specifically agreeing to when he 
offered the Order this specific plan but that he did know that this 
actually might be a trap but could not get out of it because it would 
put the suspicion on him directly. 

Or at least I believe that JKR wrote Dung's hesitations to give 
notion to the idea that Dung was the traitor to later show that Snape 
actually had cunfunded him to do so and not to the notion that the 
Order coerced him to partake in this plan. 

So at least to me, your notions or conclusion still seem unreasonable 
in relation to specific Order Members coercing Dung to be part of 
this plan. It was still Snape who did so under orders of DD. And it 
therefore would actually make more sense to me that Snape actually 
ordered Dung to cooperate with the Order, for the plan to actually be 
accepted because his unwillingness to actually go along with the plan 
himself (even if we see his hesitations in the kitchen scene) would 
arouse suspicion of a possible trap. 

Therefore again the hesitation was in my opinion not to show Dung's 
unwillingness to sacrifice himself for the cause (as I stated above 
is a occupational hazard that comes with being an Order member by 
definition and he joined this group by his own free will) but because 
we were supposed to suspect Dung of being the one who sold out the 
Order. He did but not by his own free will. 

It is not the Order in itself that sees people as expendable by 
taking advantage of the individual willingness of Order members to 
sacrifice themselves for the cause but it is DD (or to be more 
precise JKR) who actually thinks it is okay to actually sacrifice 
members of the Order unknowingly because by joining the Order you 
show that you consider yourself to be expendable to serve the cause.

It is JKR who seem to actually think that a person could be forgiving 
to do such things as long as it serves the greater good. And although 
this does happen in RL, where leaders sacrifice their minions to 
further their wartime efforts, it still is never acceptable practice 
to me. This kind of practice will go on and on because people WILL 
actually only look at the end result and then make the conclusion 
that the ends seemed to have justified the means. That is why it is 
so disturbing to me to find such a thing within this book, especially 
because it is considered a children's book. 

This book actually seems to say that it is okay to lie and cheat 
those that depend upon you and lose their life because of it, because 
they offered their service and thus their life to serve you anyway 
and so it doesn't matter how they die as long as it serves a greater 
purpose. That it takes away free will doesn't seem to have been 
something JKR actually noticed herself. 

I think we should ask her if it would have been okay for DD to 
sacrifice one of her own kids for the greater good and see if she 
still thinks he would be such a great guy for doing so. All wartime 
leader's do so but the question is; does it make it okay for people 
unknowingly being sacrificed by the people they trust and are willing 
to fight for? To me, it makes me sick that human beings can actually 
do such a thing and not lose one night sleep over it. Those people 
were willing to fight for the freedom of others, the least thing 
someone could do is properly respect that what makes these people 
willing to fight for you and your cause. 

So the least thing that should always be number one is not betray 
your own and thus not betray that what makes them willing to follow 
your lead -> trust. These people should certainly not have been 
reduced to mere numbers of casualties as JKR seemed to have done here 
too. All those who lost their lives willing to fight are still 
individuals and without each individual effort you wouldn't have an 
army in the first place. I wish people could remember this when they 
say that it was okay to sacrifice one in order to safe the many. The 
many are still made up out of many ones and thus if no one is looking 
out for the one individual then actually no one is looking out for 
the many either. It is just an illusion to think you are part of the 
many, because in the end you are still an individual no one is 
actually looking out for. 

That is why the Harry Potter series isn't working for me even though 
JKR wanted Harry to be the person who actually was looking out for 
the individual by sacrificing himself, all the other conflicted 
messages in the book completely overshadow the idea behind his 
sacrifice. This could have been so different if she had let Harry 
learn about what he needed to do half way through the book and 
looking for alternative ways to defeat LV and then coming to the 
conclusion there would be no other way then give his life as an 
ultimate sacrifice, instead of him following DD's plans for him all 
the way through thus making DD right in the end. Which thus tell us 
that the end DOES justifies the means. 

Well I think I am done with the ranting ;o)

JMHO

Dana