Moody's death (was: Dumbledore's authority WAS: Re: Fees for Harry)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 179482

Re: Dumbledore and other leaders WAS: Moody's death 

> > a_svirn:
> > Actually, you got it backwards. The Greater Good philosophy *is*
> > moral relativism.
>
> Pippin:
> IIRC, moral relativism is the belief that morals can only be judged
in
> relation to one's culture or beliefs.

a_svirn:
And world domination versus "saving thousands lives" is about
cultural differences? I wouldn't have guessed! I suppose the concept
of culture can be just as relative as the concept of morality.

Anyway, consider the grammar. GreatER Good, LessER Evil. Relative in
form just as surely as in content. Nothing is absolute, everything is
subject to negotiation. At best a compromise, more commonly merely an
excuse.

Carol:

<snip> However, it doesn't really
matter whether there's canon for House-Elves Apparating with wizards
in tow. What matters is whether Harry knows that it can be done, and,
as of "The Seven Potters," he doesn't. And even if he did, he can't
summon Dobby at will (he doesn't own Dobby) and he's certainly not
going to trust Kreacher to help him.

a_svirn:
I don't know what is so certain about that. In HBP he used Kreacher
without trusting him. And in any case it is a moot point, because it
wasn't Harry, who planned the operation. Surely the senior members of
the order new all about joint elf-wizard apparition? And if Aberforth
could send Dobby to the Malfoys, he certainly could send him to the
Dursleys.

Dana:
Well I agree no one would join an organization with the idea that you
are just an expendable element and I agree that being prepared to
risk your life is not the same as being considered expendable but I
do not agree with the idea that no one would accept the dangers of
joining an organization that could appose a threat to your life.

a_svirn:
That's not what I said. I said *Fletcher* did not accept the
dangers.

Dana:
So in this sense I do not agree with your conclusion that the Order
used Fletcher as canon folder because he was not willing to sacrifice
his life. He did willingly join the Order and with it came the
dangers of being the next in line, he was even a member of said Order
in the first war. No one made him join, he did so out of his own free
will.

a_svirn:
Are you certain about that? Sirius told Harry that the Order
tolerated Fletcher because he was "useful", and that he owed
Dumbledore a favor. Fletcher himself told Harry that he is not
a "bleeding hero" and that he never pretended that he was up to
killing himself. Sounds to me his will was not all that free. More
likely Dumbledore knew a certain something about him and used it to
press-gang him into the Order.

Dana:
Secondly he was very willing in accepting the Orders protection (even
if it was just for his illegal doings), 

a_svirn:
I didn't get the feeling that the Order "protected him in his illegal 
doings". Surely it would make the phoenixes at the very least 
accomplices? Molly was beside herself when he tried to use the 
headquarters as a store for his ill-gotten gains, and Harry almost 
mashed him into a bloody pulp when he caught him redhanded. 

Dana:
he was very willing to accept
DD's help in sticky situations but when it comes to the Order
depending on him, they all suddenly should understand that Fletcher
actually never wanted any part of the Order because he didn't want to
sacrifice his life for the cause. How? How could they have known
this?

a_svirn:
Well, you know how it is with sticky situations? I suppose he was 
made an offer he couldn't refuse. But there is a world of difference 
between doing Dumbledore's bidding and actually "killing hisself". 
And whatever he owed Dumbledore he obviously did not consider himself 
in Harry's debt. 

Dana:
He was present at Order meetings and in the case we are specifically
discussing here, he was the one that came with this plan in the first
place. So it would be okay for him to contribute in this plan by
offering the idea to begin with but the Order members are cruel for
actually making him partake in it too because it could be a danger to
his personal safety?

a_svirn:
Personally I find it hilarious that the least reliable member of the 
Order took part in the planning of the operation of the topmost 
priority. That's Rowling for you. But as for making him to 
participate in the operation, and not just participate, but to become 
a target #1, yes, I think it was cruel. And unethical. Everyone else 
was their on their free will. Fletcher wasn't, and they shouldn't 
have compelled him, much less set him up as canon folder. They knew 
that if there was an attack Flecher and Moody would be in the worst 
danger. 

Dana:
So it is okay for the individual members of the Order to risk their
butts for Fletcher but they should not expect him to do the same
thing for them?

a_svirn:
When exactly did they risk their lives for Fletcher?

Dana:
Therefore again the hesitation was in my opinion not to show Dung's
unwillingness to sacrifice himself for the cause (as I stated above
is a occupational hazard that comes with being an Order member by
definition and he joined this group by his own free will) but because
we were supposed to suspect Dung of being the one who sold out the
Order. He did but not by his own free will.

a_svirn:
These two goals aren't mutually exclusive. I accept you point about 
Rowling's intention to fling yet another red herring in our way. But 
then my point is still valid. They suspected him *because* of his 
unwillingness.