Moody's death (was: Dumbledore's authority WAS: Re: Fees for Harry)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 179497

> Carol:
> 
> First, everyone except Mundungus (who is *not* the person who dies) 
is
> participating in the Seven Potters mission voluntarily. And, of
> course, they're putting Harry's life above their own--again,
> *choosing* to do so--because they know he's the only one who can
> defeat Voldemort. The Chose One, the one LV has been trying to 
murder
> since he was a baby.

a_svirn:
Except that Snape fed the information to Voldemort not to protect 
Harry (it had, in fact, increased the danger considerably), but to 
improve his own standing. 


> Carol:
> Second, it isn't merely a matter of Snape's sitting at Voldemort's
> right hand. Dumbledore wants Snape as headmaster of Hogwarts to
> protect the students from the Carrows (DH Am. ed. 688). While Snape
> can't completely protect the students from the Carrows without 
giving
> away his loyalties (and being murdered as a tratior), no one dies
> while he's there, the teachers other than the Carrows retain their
> positions, and Snape as much as invites the D.A. to reform by
> reposting one of Umbridg'es old decrees. Imagine how different it
> would be if the Carrows actually ran the school rather than having 
to
> answer to Snape. 

a_svirn:
Let's see. No muggle-borns. Students are tortured, magically and 
physically, hung up in chains etc. and being taken hostages, while 
their families are being threatened. Teachers are threatened, 
humiliated and sometimes killed, like Charity Burbage. But wait! It 
happened under Snape's regime as well. Ok, technically Charity 
Burbage was killed before Snape was appointed. But where is the 
difference? Do you think that Snape would have said or done something 
besides murmuring "Ah, yes" and watching impassively her being 
murdered? I don't think so. He had clear instructions as to whose 
life is worth preserving. And he would have preserved it whatever the 
cost. I think the regime would have been exactly the same under the 
Carrows. (Except, perhaps, Ginny and Co wouldn't have been so lucky 
as to get detention with Hagrid.)


> Carol:
They'd bring in DEs to (ostensibly) teach every
> subject. 

a_svirn:
So would Snape have done, if Voldemort had asked it of him. Or do you 
think he'd have refused? But then he would have given away his 
loyalties and would have been murdered as a traitor. Wouldn't he? 

> Carol:
Under Snape, the students are safe when they're in their
> dormitories (the Carrows can't get into the Ravenclaw common room
> without Flitwick's help--why he let Alecto in I have no idea) and
> they're taught all but two of their classes by competent teachers 
who
> have the students' safety in mind and will do everything in their
> power to thwart the Carrows as they thwarted Umbridge in OoP. 

a_svirn:
Actually, they didn't thwart Umbridge all that much. The twins and 
Peeves were the only ones who rebelled openly. Harry and others 
humbly turned up at her detentions and scribble "I must not tell 
lies", the Quidditch team had to make do without its captain etc. And 
as for the Carrows exactly how were they thwarted?! They had their 
fun. Michael Corner let out a first year? Well, he got beaten and had 
to lie low. I think they even enjoyed it. And that first year, 
probably, was hung again for a longer period. Hagrid hosted 
a "Support Harry Potter Party"? Well, he had to flee and lie low in 
the cave. They did everything they would have done if one of them had 
been a headmaster. 

> Carol:
He also
> closes off the secret passageways, which serves the dual purpose of
> keeping students from sneaking into Hogsmeade, where the DEs are
> staked out, and of keeping DEs out of Hogwarts.

a_svirn:
He doesn't keep even Voldemort from Hogwarts. Death eaters did not 
need to enter Hogwarts in secret. They could just waltz in openly.
 
> Carol: 
> *That's* the primary reason why Snape must maintain his credibility.

a_svirn:
Not at all. The primarily reason Snape had to retain his office is 
that Dumbledore needed his puppet close at hand. There are certain 
disadvantages in being dead, though in the WW and with a well-chosen 
puppet they may be overcome to a reasonable extent.  

> Carol:
> Snape performs a role, actually, several roles, that only he can 
fill.  He cannot be replaced by any old Order member.

a_svirn:
Of course. In a scenario written by Dumbledore. 

> Carol:
 > But Snape really tells LV only two crucial bits of information, the
> time and date of the planned escape. And, as Pippin points out, LV
> would have had DEs on the watch, perhaps on call nearby. And they 
can
> Apparate instantly to that spot. You say that LV can't appear
> instantly, but I believe that you're mistaken. 

a_svirn:
By the time he appears, seven Harrys would have gone to seven 
different directions. Where would he have apparated? To Privet Drive? 
They would have gone out of sight by then. The two death eaters on 
the look-out would have gone after Moody and Kingsley. They would 
have pressed their marks constantly moving. 

And you aren't even considering the possibility of attacking them, 
before they press their Marks. If it were only two of them (a usual 
number on the look-out) it would be feasible wouldn't? 

> Carol:
> As for Moody's death, Mundungus caused that by Disapparating instead
> of fighting back. It wasn't inevitable that he would be killed, 

a_svirn:
Actually, the odds were that Moody and Kingsley would die almost 
certainly. And some others as well. It is most improbable outcome 
that the Order lost only one member, while being outnumbered more 
than two to one and with Voldemort himself participating. It's just 
another example of Rowling's contrivances. 

> Carol:
or
> that LV himself would take part in the chase. 

a_svirn:
Are you joking? Voldemort not taking part in the chase? When it was 
the only reasonable chance to get hold of Harry? 

 
> Carol, who agrees that the Seven Potters plan isn't perfect, but
> disagrees that it was a suicide mission doomed to failure and that
> nothing would have been different (except Moody's death) if Snape 
had
> not revealed it under DD's orders

a_svirn:
Yeah. Except that.