Imperio.

[Lee Kaiwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 177665

eggplant107 blessed us with this gem On 03/10/2007 00:00:

LK> it is the conclusion which is precisely
LK> the point of dispute.

Egg> The conclusion is only in dispute if you think Hermione hated Harry

Wrong discussion. I wasn't referring to Hermione/Harry, but to your 
argument that the Unforgivables must not be so bad because they were 
used by Good Guys in book 7. Since the use of Unforgivables by Good Guys 
in book 7 is precisely the point of dispute, it cannot be used as a 
premise for your argument.

LK> In the first six books (well, books 3 to 6,
LK> at least), the morality of the Unforgivables
LK> is pretty cut and dried.

Egg> Well that is certainly untrue. The concept was not even introduced
Egg> until book 4

You're correct, of course. Mea culpa. The above should read "books 4 to 6".

Egg> and in that book we learn that the Ministry itself has
Egg> routinely used those curses

Routinely? Per Sirius, use of the UCs was authorized during VWI, but I 
see nothing about "routine" use by the MoM. But then you argue yourself 
that the MoM is hardly a paragon of virtue, so I'm not sure how they 
suddenly become a bellweather for non-wrongness of the UCs.

Egg> and in book 5 and 6 Harry used them.

He attempted to use them, and largely failed, save for a bit of 
discomfiture for Bellatrix. But in each case he was driven by rage and a 
desire for revenge -- against Bellatrix for killing Sirius, and against 
Snape for killing DD. I hope you're not suggesting revenge exonerates 
illegal acts.

Egg> In
Egg> book 6 Snape uses the very worst of the "Unforgivables" but in the
Egg> next book we learn that it was a noble thing to do

See above re: book 7. And speaking of putting things in quotes, there 
are no quotes around Unforgivables in HP that I've seen.

Egg> and Harry has most
Egg> certainly forgiven Snape for committing this "unforgivable" act.

Bully for Harry. How is that relevant?

Egg> In fact other than the name (given by that paragon of virtue, the
Egg> Ministry) JKR does not give us one scrap of evidence that the
Egg> "Unforgivable" curses are indeed unforgivable, not one hint in
Egg> 7 books.

"Other than the name"? Silly me for assuming the name of the things was 
relevant. Why call them Unforgivable (and without quotes) if that's not 
what she meant? Just to mislead her readers?

But whether or not the MoM coined the name is irrelevant. It was, as 
near as we can tell, the name universally adopted and applied throughout 
the WW (certainly we're told of no other name for them). Whether the MoM 
was a paragon of virtue in general or not, on this particular point, the 
WW would seem to be in near universal agreement.

I've been combing through the HPforGrownups archives, been to numerous 
websites discussing the UCs, and as far as I can see, prior to DH the 
vast majority of HP fandom simply accepted the label at face value (not 
even you, AFAICT, suggested otherwise). All this attempt to throw quotes 
around Unforgivable or dismiss it as MoM politicking bears the earmarks 
of a post facto attempt to redefine the UCs in light of their very 
different portrayal in DH. (I'm open to correction on this; the HPGU 
archives are huge(!) and I've almost certainly missed a lot. But I 
believe my general assessment is correct.)

All of which speaks to my earlier point viz. reader expectations.

--CJ