Snape Reduced (was: Re: Villain!Dumbledore...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 177823

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Heh.  To me the elephant in the room causing the dysfunction was 
> > Lily's not very well hidden contempt for Snape.  It was an ugly 
> > relationship that any kid with healthy self-respect would have   
> > thrown over. 

> >>Pippin:
> Contempt? Ugly relationship? Where do you see the canon for this?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Lily spends a lot of time chastising Snape.  And he spends a lot of 
time trying to get her attention.  It didn't come across as a 
relationship of equals to me.  I was also incredibly unimpressed that 
Lily blamed Snape for the two of them reading Petunia's letter.  

I mean, I'm sure, given everything we know, it was all Snape's idea 
and Lily went along with it reluctantly because she's so good and 
all.  But it was just another way in which Snape sucked and Lily was 
perfect and I just couldn't see them as actual friends.  More, the 
saint and her sinner.

> >>Pippin:
> I thought it was Snape's inability to recover from his grief that   
> you found unhealthy.

Betsy Hp:
I did find that weird yes.  Though, I'm sure Dumbledore helped Snape 
into his hair-shirt every morning. <g>

> >>Pippin:
> I see I misunderstood. Apparently you're seeing a whole masochistic 
> self-hate thing going on which I'm missing completely.

Betsy Hp:
Yeah, that's pretty much how I read Snape now.  It's the only reason 
I can see him maintaining his "love" for Lily for so long, and 
sticking with Dumbledore as well.  He hates himself and they both 
validate those feelings for him.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> So what does it have to do with the Slytherin dynamic?

Betsy Hp:
To me, everything.  From the age of eleven certain children are told 
they're bad and disgusting.  And when Gryffindor's bully them (as we 
see throughout the books) the Gryffindors are doing their civic 
duty.  The Slytherins fight that viewpoint (they seem to think 
they're a-okay) at least until Harry finally completely humbles them 
by exposing their moral weakness.  But in DH we learn that this 
viewpoint is correct.  They should all be wearing hair-shirts.
 
> >>Pippin:
> I...what? Draco did get off the tower. Literally, and figuratively.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Well, literally yes.  But figuratively?  He's still being slung 
around by the scruff of his neck, following other's orders and 
waiting for mommy to rescue him.  Draco doesn't take a postive step.  
So, IMO, he doesn't get off the frozen inaction of the tower.

> >>Pippin:
> The expectation that Draco would morph into a hero can
> not have been based on canon, IMO... <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree.  Which is why this wasn't an expectation of mine. <eg>  I 
just expected a moment of positive action.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > And why are we supposed to think Snape is worried about the      
> > Malfoys?  Is there anything in DH to suggest it?

> >>Pippin:
> The sudden movement in GoF, Narcissa's faith that Snape will find 
> a way to help Draco (and her expectation that he will do this       
> without any reward from her), Sirius's lap dog comment, all show    
> there's a close relationship between Snape and the Malfoys.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
They all *hint* to something that I expected to see expressed in DH.  
But we got nothing.  Which means I can only conclude that those hints 
were meaningless.  Spice for the broth, but no meat.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> In DH he gets the only fully realized death scene in the entire     
> series, which makes him quite important since death is a major     
> theme. 

Betsy Hp:
How is Snape's death scene more fully realized than Sirius's, Dobby's 
or Dumbledore's?  

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Screw the students, huh?  ::shrug:: Kind of Dumbledore's normal   
> > way of operating though so yeah, scew 'em. <g>  

> >>Pippin:
> Even with the Elder Wand, Dumbledore's power was not infinite, 
> therefore his power to protect the students was not infinite. 
> Snape's power was even less. I think the necessity of choosing
> their  battles is  a lot of what makes JKR's good characters       
> interesting. But if your idea of a hero is someone who never has to 
> compromise, then yeah, such a person could not exist in the 
> universe JKR chose to write about.

Betsy Hp:
You mean like Harry? <beg>  Honestly, my idea of a hero is someone 
who thinks or is intelligent.  And yes, I'll agree, such a person 
seems to have a hard time existing in JKR's universe.  That an idiot 
like Voldemort could so easly throw both Snape and Dumbledore for a 
loop, causing students to be injured or killed under their watch, 
doesn't impress me much.  I wasn't looking for perfection.  I was 
looking for effort.

> >>Pippin:
> I  can see where it might  be tempting to exaggerate Snape's
> victimhood.  Then we readers could construct a rescue
> scenario of our own, where JKR is the bullying tyrant who 
> abuses her characters and we who point this out can 
> cast ourselves in her  place as champion of the oppressed.
> 
> After all anyone who's that rich and that famous can't really be
> good <veg>. 

Betsy Hp:
Eh, I've never had a problem with the rich.  (Part of the reason 
Draco's money never bothered me.)  

As far as Snape's "victimhood"...  I do think the possibilities of 
his character were wasted.  But I think that of all of JKR's 
characters because I think DH was such a mess, plot-wise and 
character-wise.  Tons of characters (including the Trio) failed to 
raise to their promised potential, IMO.  Does that mean JKR is 
a "bullying tyrant"?  I think it means she's a bad writer, or maybe a 
lazy or sloppy one.  (All my opinon, of course.)  And part of the 
problem may have been JKR forcing a story instead of letting it 
evolve, but I can't really know that for sure.

What can say is that, for me, even the characters I found most 
interesting in the beginning, became rather pathetic and small in the 
end.  Which is not how I like to end a reading.  But there you are.

Betsy Hp