Likeable Slughorn (was: Villain!Dumbledore )

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 177899

> Betsy Hp:
> But that's because I think Hermione got into the club more on 
> her "connections" than her talents.  Slughorn was into Harry, he 
> wanted Harry in his club, and Harry had praised Hermione.  So 
> Hermione was in.

zgirnius:
I don't buy it. Harry has two best friends. Sluggie picked the Muggle-
born one over the pureblood. Why? Because she is as talented as Harry 
says she is, in my opinion. She did not *do* anything to get in. 
Unless you count answering every question in class correctly and 
being second only to Snape (oh, I mean Harry) in potionsmaking. WHich 
she would have done regardless.

BatsyHP:
> But I think that's because I really do see Slughorn and his club as 
> being about "collecting" rather than being about helping the 
talented 
> get ahead.  

zgirnius:
It's about both. The talented who get ahead are worthy additions to 
his collection. If he did not help them, they would feel no 
reciprocal obligation to send him nice presents.

> BetsyHP:
> Slughorn goes for what interests him: pretty boys of good 
> breeding, and apparently spunky girls.  (Though I think the girls 
are 
> more of a way to lure in the pretty boys.) 

zgirnius:
I disagree. First, we know his patronage of Muggleborns extends to 
males - he mentions at least one as an example. And his patronage of 
males extends to the not-so-pretty. Is Cormac? I think he is there 
because he goes on hunting trips with Scrimgeour. And the same 
applies to females. I very much doubt a Beater on the Holyhead 
Harpies has much going for her in the looks department. She has to be 
built like Millicent Bullstrode, to succeed in her profession. 

> BetsyHP:
> The kind who'd go to a Jewish doctor or accountant but not 
> invite them to the club-house.  He's a pragmatic bigot. Which is 
> apparently the best Slytherin can hope for.)

zgirnius:
There's only one problem I see with this idea. He *does* invite them 
to the clubhouse. 


> Magpie:
> But the Slug Club is central the classroom experience in Slughorn's 
> class. There's no reason for any kid in the class to be much aware 
> of it, yet it's at the bottom of everything--it's a joke in the way 
> he treats everyone. 

zgirnius:
I was not glowing about Sluggie as a teacher. <g> I merely said that 
at a school which retains the likes of Binns, Trelawney, and Hagrid 
as teachers for years, I would not point out Sluggie's teaching as a 
particular problem - there is far worse out there among his 
colleagues. He seems, at least, to know the material and present it 
in a fashion that has some appeal to his students.

> Magpie:
> I have no problem with Ron not being in the 
> club. I have a problem with the way Slughorn treats Ron. 

zgirnius:
So do I. Ron is fully justified in disliking Sluggie. 

> magpie:
> And I'd think Slughorn's behavior would seriously 
> backfire on him more than once. The author shows Slughorn being 
> transparent about judging people as worthless to him and treating 
> them as such. Whether or not one uses the word racism, being 
treated 
> as nothing is an experience described by real life people in just 
> these kinds of situations.

zgirnius:
Well, that's why it is not racism. The 'racism' of which he is 
accused is one which asserts the superiority of Purebloods, yet 
Slughorn treats Ronald Weasley as worthless, and recruits Hermione, 
the Muggle-born. It's not just because she is Harry's BFF either. Ron 
is also Harry's BFF, yet Sluggie cannot be bothered to remember his 
name. The difference seems obvious to me: Hermione is indeed the 
smartest witch of her year.

I would expect it to backfire on him myself. In fact, I would guess 
it may have in the past. He just doesn't talk about it to 
students. "Join my club! Arthur Weasley, Head of the Muggle Relations 
Department at the Ministry, despises me" is not a selling point. (I 
seem to recall Molly made some comment about Sluggie in HBP - I may 
be misremembering).

> Magpie:
> Personally, I didn't think Hermione came out very well re: the Slug 
> Club. I thought she was a sucker for it because she loves praise 
and 
> being told that she's special, myself.

zgirnius:
If she had beem shown doing something she would not otherwise have 
done, 'selling out' in some way to be in the club, I would agree. She 
is not, so I have no problem with her being in it. Both for the 
possible long-term advantages, and the short-term gratification of 
feeling appreciated.

> Magpie:
> The fact that as far as I was 
> concerned Slughorn had introduced himself by making clear that he 
> does look down on Muggleborns as inferior, but prides himself on 
> cases like Hermione who are the exceptions, made me feel that even 
> more. Did she know she was a token Muggle-born? 

zgirnius:
I do not believe she was the token Muggle-born. I believe that 
Sluggie will take any talented Muggle-born he feels has the drive and 
personality to succeed. In addition to Hermione and Lily, he also 
mentored the Head of the Goblin Liaison Office in the Ministry, who 
is a talented Muggle-born wizard (in Sluggie's opinion, we never meet 
the man).

Nor do I have any problem with *being* the token Muggle-born. As I 
graduated from UCLA, I was interviewed for a tenure-track position in 
the Math Department of the University of Connecticut. You see, their 
only female professor was retiring, so they brought in the four best 
candidates they could find (naturally *wink*), all of whom happened 
to be female. Had I been offered teh position, I would certainly have 
taken it.

> Magpie: 
> I assume the best attitude was supposed to be the one held by Harry 
> and Ginny, who thought the Club was ridiculous and rejected it, 
> while being the most sought-after people. Though of course that 
> makes it a lot easier to reject it--both of them got adulation 
> elsewhere. Hermione's more insecure to begin with. (Not that 
> Hermione needed the Club so much either--she's bff with Harry 
> Potter.)

zgirnius:
I agree that Rowling likely regards Harry's attitude as superior. I 
don't. I think that a person who takes advantage of an opportunity 
like that one without being corrupted by it is doing absolutely 
nothing wrong. And I did not see Hermione doing anything wrong to 
stay in the club.

If she indeed intended Harry and Ginny's attitude to seem heroic 
rather that merely good (and I am not convinced she did) then yes, it 
fell flat precisely for the reasons you name. Neither of them got 
anything out of Sluggie's interest anyway.

Hermione, on the other hand, got things she could not get by being 
Harry's BFF alone. First, during HBP the connection between being 
Harry's BFF and worldly success was less than clear, and second, she 
believed (and I think correctly) that she was receiving this 
recognition in part due to her own talents, not merely because of 
Harry. Which is something she does, as you say, like.