Reacting to DH (was:Snape Reduced LONG(was: Re: Villain!Dumbledore...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 177932

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip> 
> > For me, the story of Jacob and Esau has a much more explicit and 
> > concrete reuniting of two opposing forces than the supposed      
> > reuniting of those dear friends, Gryffindor and Slytherin, that  
> > I'm told is in DH. 

> >>Pippin:
> Ah, but the reader of Genesis is supposed  to know that the        
> Edomites (the descendants of Esau) and the Hebrews were traditional 
> enemies, so the love and forgiveness did not last, though Jacob and 
> Esau came together to bury their father just as the Houses came     
> together to entomb Dumbledore. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Maybe back in the day, but the story's power has remained long after 
the knowledge of how the various descendents fell out was common 
knowledge.  That's the timelessness I was talking about.  The kernel 
story had enough going for it that it was told time and time again, 
written down, and finally canonized.

JKR doesn't even give us that kernel.  In fact, you're asking me to 
twist the text and squint at it sideways to see a loving reunion that 
in Genesis was made obvious by actions and tears.  For some reason 
I'm supposed to buy that JKR would expect for me to pick up on 
esoteric symbols to get the heart of her story and overlook the mess 
that is the obvious tale.  Why?  Why should I have to work so hard to 
make the story something other than repulsive?  What makes this book 
worth that work, and why doesn't the author have to do any of it?

> >>Pippin:
> JKR gives her readers the same freedom. The story I had
> in mind was actually the sacrifice of Isaac. We aren't told how
> Abraham feels about what he's asked to do, or how Isaac
> reacted to being laid on the altar. The result is that
> it can be told to children as a consolation story, while adults
> almost uniformly find it extremely disturbing.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh.  You should have specified. <g>  Yes, that's a disturbing story 
and we're not given any hints as far as the players go as to how we 
should interpert it.  That's not what JKR does at all.  Harry is the 
hero, Dumbledore is his mentor, Voldemort is the villain.  That's all 
up front and straight forward.  JKR spoon-feeds us our emotions.  
Sure, sometimes she's crap at it when it comes to me, because she and 
I don't see eye to eye, but it's not because she doesn't try.  Very 
different from the story of Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, IMO.

> >>Pippin:
> It doesn't seem to me that the existence of plot holes has 
> anything to do with whether the author expects you to search
> for emotional or moral meanings.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, the *author* can have all the expectations in the world.  I'm 
talking about what I, the reader, got out of the story.  And I got a 
gigantic mess with a moral so disturbing it actually struck me as 
evil.

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> The point of the whole camping bit, IMO, was to show that          
> Gryffindors no more than Slytherins are trapped by the central
> problem of human existence: if the group is too small, it
> cannot secure resources, but every additional member is
> a competitor for resources and a possible betrayer. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Seriously?  That's what you were thinking about?  I was wondering 
when Harry was going to pull his head out of his ass and put a plan 
together. <g>  I was also wondering when this really, really boring 
time watching the Trio hang out and whine together would ever, ever 
end.  I wasn't getting any insight into group economics and the 
difficulty of sustaining a viable tribe. <bg>  (Boy, I'd love to see 
JKR faced with that question in an interview. Like a deer in 
headlights, I bet.)

> >>Pippin:
> <snip>
> I do agree we are shown to the door in DH, a bit like
> Harry being told that the Mirror of Erised will be taken to a new
> hiding place and he must not look for it again. 

Betsy Hp:
Yeah.  I'm not anything like Harry.  I question. <rbg>  DH, IMO, 
doesn't stand up to questions.  It was, IMO, a failure.

Betsy Hp