Snape Reduced (was: Re: Villain!Dumbledore...

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 177967

Pippin wrote:
<snip>
> I...what? Draco did get off the tower. Literally, and figuratively.

Carol responds:

Right. But not on his own power. DD and Snape together made sure that
Draco neither murdered nor was murdered. Then Snape grabbed him by the
nape of the neck and half-dragged, half-carried him, not only off the
tower but off the grounds. (Meanwhile, he made sure that the DEs did
not further harm to Harry and got off the grounds himself.) Since
Draco survived to attend school the following year, it seems likely
that Snape put in a good word for him to Voldie, pointing out that had
Draco not let the DEs into Hogwarts, he, Snape, could not have killed
DD. Beyond that, Snape can't say or do anything more to help Draco,
who must now be a man and deal with his own situation (he joined the
DEs, and, like the young Snape, must pay the consequences). Draco,
being Draco, still lacks the courage to rebel against Voldemort (he
fears for himself and his family, with reason), but at least he
doesn't develop an enjoyment of torture as his friend Crabbe does.
That he is weak is no fault of Snape's. At least he's not evil, and
he's alive, with minimal damage to his soul (whatever unwilling
Crucios and failed, half-hearted murder attempts would do to it).

Pippin:
<snip>
> Draco was forced to perform cruciatus curses and so were all the
other kids at Hogwarts. <snip>

Carol responds:

Are you sure about that? First-years struggle with Wingardium Leviosa.
I can't see them successfully Crucioing anybody. Fake!Moody tells his
fourth years that all of them together could point their wands at him
and shout "Avada Kedavra!" and he probably wouldn't even get a
nosebleed. Bellatrix tells Harry that you have to *mean* the
Unforgiveable Curses. The Ministry (pre-Voldie) didn't even want the
kids to learn *about* them until sixth year. It seems to me that not
even Amycus Carrow would attempt to teach every student in Hogwarts
the Unforgiveable Curses (if only because they might turn around and
try to use the curses against him), and the younger students or the
more timid students or those who lacked the power wouldn't be able to
perform them. Neville is speaking from the perspective of a
seventh-year. I'm not sure that we can safely generalize from his
experiences to those of "all the other kids at Hogwarts." Moreover, he
mentions only two, Crabbe and Goyle, both seventh years, who actually
enjoy performing the Cruciatus Curse and, by implication, perform it
successfully. We do know that Amycus Carrow is teaching other forms of
magic besides the Unforgiveables, including some actual DADA spells,
because Crabbe and Goyle actually learn the Disillusionment Charm.

To speculate for a moment, if Snape is keeping his promise to DD to
protect the students, he might very well tell the Carrows to follow
the most recent Ministry-approved curriculum, one which maintains an
aura of respectability (a la Umbridge's anti-Muggle-born pamphlets and
Snape's acceptance speech) and provides a curriculum with increasing
levels of difficulty, ensuring that students are not taught spells
beyond their ability to perform. Snape would also want to be sure that
the students passed their OWLs and NEWTs, which presumably don't yet
include the UCs, and didn't kill or torture one another (spill magical
blood) in the hallways. If necessary, he could word those orders as
the Dark Lord's will, or he could use the Durmstrang curriculum as a
model.

At any rate, there's no evidence that "all the ... kids" were required
to perform the Cruciatus Curse, which not even Harry could perform
successfully in his fifth year. (He was thwarted in his attempts to
perform it in his sixth year, and only succeeded in his seventh when
driven by hatred and a desire to inflict pain.) Luna, BTW, says that
she has successfully cast her first Stunning Spell outside the DA in
DH; it seems unlikely that she's cast a successful Crucio if she can't
even do Stupefy. And I can't see her summoning up the will to cause
pain, either. Perhaps it's only the seventh years who were supposed to
Crucio their fellow students, and only those who were in detention,
IIRC. If they were throwing Crucios around in the classroom, one might
"accidentally" hit Amycus. (Alecto used the curse herself but didn't
teach it in her Muggle Studies classes.)

> > Betsy Hp:
> > Really?  *Snape* does?  I thought it was all Harry.  Snape gets
him the sword, but wasn't that about all Snape does?  (Oh, he gets
Mad-Eye killed, for some odd reason.  And there was that fortuitous 
memory dump.)  <snip>

Carol responds:

Wait. Snape is responsible for Mad-Eye's death? Explain, please. He
Confunds Mundungus on DD's orders and makes him suggest the polyjuiced
Potters plan, but he doesn't say how many Potters there will be, who
will be involved, or who will ride with whom. It's Mad-eye's decision
to ride with Mundungus and Mundungus's own decision to Disapparate,
leaving Mad-eye to be killed by Voldemort's curse. And it's Voldemort
attempting to kill "Harry" that results in the Disapparation. How
Snape can be blamed is beyond me. He was following DD's orders in
revealing the time and date of the escape from Privet Drive but
suppressing the crucial information about the polyjuiced Potters. As
for "that fortuitous memory dump," I'm afraid you've lost me.

And getting the sword to Harry is absolutely crucial to destroy that
first Horcrux, not to mention that Snape's doe Patronus also leads Ron
back to Harry, which saves Harry's life. Snape has also, of course,
arranged to have a fake sword sent to the Lestrange's vault so that
the DEs (and students) don't know he has the real one. That is not,
however, all that Snape does. His mere presence at the school prevents
the DEs from taking over all the classes; he retains the old teachers
other than the Carrows to be sure that the students actually receive
an education and that the Carrows will be resisted as Umbridge was; he
closes off all the secret passages so that the students can't sneak
out into Hogsmeade and be killed or kidnapped and the DEs can't get
in; and he posts Umbridge's old decrees, insuring that the DA will
rebel. And, of course, Ginny's, Neville's, and Luna's "terrible"
detention allows them contact with Hagrid (who, BTW, is teaching about
unicorns this year, so he can probably still get Kneazels and other
appropriate beasts). The Hogwarts Express is still running normally,
so presumably, the carriages and boats are working as usual. The kids
go home as usual for holidays (Christmas and Easter). it's no fault of
Snape's that Luna is kidnapped by DEs on Platform 9 3/4. He can only
protect her at school (as he protects Ginny by forbidding her from
going to Hogsmeade). The kids still have meals prepared by house-elves
and safe common rooms that the Carrows can't enter (they need
Flitwick's or McGonagall's help to get into the Ravenclaw common
room--why Flitwick let Alecto in is a mystery to me).

Snape has to keep his cover. If Voldemort suspects that he's disloyal,
he'll be killed, and conditions would be much worse at Hogwarts if,
say, Yaxley or Dolohov took over as headmaster. 

And Snape performs one last, crucial act, without which Harry could
not have defeated Voldemort. He gives Harry the memory that tells
Harry he must fact Voldemort wandless, prepared to sacrifice himself,
to destroy that last soul bit (and, though neither Snape nor Harry
knows it, activate the ancient magic that destroys Voldemort's power).

> Pippin:
<snip>
> Since Snape, like everyone else except the Trio and DD's portrait, 
is not privy to what Harry is trying to do, Snape's role is limited. I
wouldn't say reduced, since what he does do is vital. His role in the
book is reduced compared to HBP, which after all is named for him. But
it isn't reduced compared to, say, CoS or GoF. In DH he gets the only
fully realized death scene in the entire series, which makes him quite
important since death is a major theme. <snip>

Carol:

Also, of course, Harry and the others believe that Snape is evil, but
JKR us dropping little hints along the way (his Occlumency in chapter
1, the inability of any DEs to get into 12 GP despite his knowing the
secret, the doe Patronus, the "terrible" detention with Hagrid, the
sword that he sends to Gringotts, the duel with McGonagall in which
*she* casts deadly spells and he fights defensively) that Harry is
wrong. Snape, unlike any other non-HRH character, gets two and a half
chapters of his own, two of them referring to him in their titles
("The Sacking of Severus Snape" and "the Prince's Tale"). He's talked
about offpage by everyone from HRH to Griphook the Goblin and Ted
Tonks to Phineas Nigellus (another clue that he's a good guy if we
read carefully). He's the only character who is publicly vindicated by
Harry in front of the Hogwarts staff, the DA, the people of Hogsmeade,
and others, and the only one besides DD and Harry's parents for whom a
child is named.

JKR has to keep him off page except for the first chapter and tiny
snippets of information (or misinformation) from a variety of sources
until the duel with McGonagall in part because HRH are isolated from
everyone and in part because she's preparing Harry and the reader for
a dramatic revelation/reversal. We can only see him as he appears to
Voldemort, the DEs, and people like McGonnagal and Flitwick who
believe him to be DD's murderer (though the adulation of Phineas
Nigellus and the reactions of Slughorn and the unnamed Slytherin
student who asks where he is indicate that not everyone sees him as
evil) until his secret is finally revealed following that highly
dramatic death scene (in which he is obsessed with getting that
crucial information to Harry) and his spectacular last act of magic
(in which he gives Harry a lot more than that one memory, enough to
lead Harry to understand, forgive, and publicly vindicate him). For a
character who's necessarily offpage for most of the book, he plays a
surprisingly important role, more important, IMO, than any other
secondary character except Dumbledore. He even gets to speak some last
words and have his last wish fulfilled, in contrast to Dobby, who dies
needlessly after having completed a heroic act but gets only a
wordless last look at Harry. (Admittedly, Dobby gets a private
funeral, but circumstances prevent anything similar for Snape. The
possibility of a public funeral for Headmaster Snape or his being
remembered at a memorial service along with Lupin and Tonks remains
open, however.) Unlike Voldemort, he's redeemed by his remorse and his
repeated acts of atonement. And he gets a whole chapter to himself
after his death, unlike any other character except Dumbledore.

Considering that he's already had his own book (HBP might as well be
called "Harry Potter and Severus Snape" since Snape is the HBP and, as
such and as Professor Snape, gets a lot more page time than the
eponymous Prisoner of Azkaban), Snape does very well in DH in terms of
importance to theme and plot. He's the only character besides DD and
Grindelwald about whom hints are dropped and the only one besides DD
who rates a backstory. The resolution of Snape's love and loyalties,
even the granting to him of JKR's favorite virtue, courage, is and
always has been central to the plot, planned from the beginning, the
one mystery held over from book to book with clues parceled out in
every volume of the series. (None of which makes him a kind and loving
man, or an innocent one, only a crucial and misunderstood character
who is finally revealed as worthy of admiration and compassion near
the end of the last book.)

Carol, who thinks that if we put together the Snape clues in DH we can
get some idea of how he kept his promise to DD to protect the
students, including Draco, as best he could without revealing his true
loyalties, which would have been disastrous