Likeable Regulus.

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 178046

Alla:

I do not believe that somebody who would have still had in his head
those thoughts would have agreed to die for house elf, or goblin or
werewolf or any non - human race.

He did not just retaliate against Voldie, he saved a life, no?

He did not just steal a horcrux, he drank that horrible horrible
thing. He would never enjoy the consequences of his retaliation, the
only satisfaction for him, for this poor eighteen year old to know
that his elf would live, is it not?

<snip>
Yes, if ALL that Reg did was stealing the locket, I agree, I would
have asked for motivations, for sure.

Luckily for me, he did something that I do not need motivation for -
he saved a life of house elf.

Terrible violent bigots in my mind would never do it.

JMO of course.

Prep0strus:

I think maybe I can imagine worse things, then - because I can picture
someone who would save his elf but still be horrible in other regards.
 I don't think Regulus just started loving Kreacher. I think he cared
for him the whole time - when he joined up with the DE, when he
spouted evil nonsense about Muggleborns... it's so hard to define what
a house elf is.  They seem more than pets but not as much as humans. 
So a real world analogy is almost impossible. But I think people would
die for friends and possibly even servants on either side of a war,
and depending which side you're on... it doesn't always have to be the
Nazis.  Maybe someone in the southern states of the US who believed
slavery was fine might die for someone they cared about while still
fighting for something the rest of us think is wrong.  It's a harder
analogy because Kreacher is an elf, but also, he didn't just become an
elf, and I don't see that Regulus would have just started caring for
him.  He was always an elf that Regulus cared about - while he did and
said terrible things.

His sacrifice for Kreacher is admirable, but I'm not sure it's
evidence of a change of heart about other things.


> 
> Eggplant:
> 
> His relationship with Kreature although very interesting and touching
> is not the defining characteristic of Regulus; it is the fact that he
> gave his life to strike Voldemort in the spot it hurt him the most, in
> his Horcrux.
> 

Prep0strus:
This is interesting to me, as you and Alla reach the same conclusions
each using a different piece of the two pieces of information we have.
 Meanwhile, I don't find either sufficient - I don't think we
understand his motivation for stealing the locket well enough to
ascribe 'goodness' to it, and I don't think his love of Kreacher
necessarily signals his 'goodness' in other areas.

Eggplant:
> And I don't give a hoot in hell what Regulus believed. I don't care
> what thoughts were dancing around in his head. As long as he can do
> astronomically good things like that let the man think what he wants
> to think. I don't believe in thought crime.

>  <snip me>

> We most certainly do disagree! If you do the right thing for the wrong
> reason it's still the right thing to do, and it you do the wrong thing
> for the right reason it's still the wrong thing to do.
> 
> And we can never be certain of anybody's motivations, but we can be
> certain of their actions. The ultimate question is, if Regulus had
> never been born would the world have been a better place? I don't
> believe it would have been.
> 

Prep0strus:
This response totally startled and surprised me.  I think you're wrong
that we can never be certain of anyone's motivations - in literature.
 Often we can be very certain, because we can see inside a character's
head, or the author simply tells us.

But that you actually care more for the action than the motivation is
not a way I ever would have even thought to read a book.  Or your
evaluation of 'thought crimes'. I mean... in real life I don't think
someone can be prosecuted for wanting to do a crime they didn't
commit.  However, I believe that someone's motivations for when they
commit a crime certainly come into play, at least during sentencing. 
If someone hurts someone who they believe is hurting another person in
trying to rescue that person... does that not make them less morally
culpable?  If someone tries to shoot someone, but misses, does that
make them a better person?  I think intent, while not an adequate way
to decide someone's fate in criminal court, is a very important way we
judge the morality of someone, especially a character in a story.

If Regulus was trying to do something bad, or if he was still a bigot
who simply wanted revenge on his old leader, maybe so he could be a
NEW dark lord... he is not, by any means, a good guy.

Your last question is interesting... would the world be a better place
had Regulus never been born?  It's hard to say, again, with knowing as
little as we do about the character, but my guess? I give (Disclaimer:
odds are made up in my own head, based on nothing) ~70% odds  that the
world would be roughly the same, ~20%odds the world would be better,
and ~10% odds the world would be worse.

I say this because they would have gotten the locket anyway.  Less
rigmarole - Dumbledore and Harry would simply have gotten the locket.

There are of course unknowns - what evil did Regulus do as a young
Death Eater and as a full fledged Death Eater?  This is where I think
the world might have been better without him.  Then, there are the
even greater intangibles - what eddies did his actions cause that
might have changed things, making the world worse in ways we don't
know - maybe Harry wouldn't have met Aberforth, convincing him and his
bar passage to help.  Maybe they wouldn't have befriended Kreacher and
gotten his help. Etc.

But without Regulus, who knows what Kreacher would have become? Yes,
he had Momma Black corrupting him, but Regulus wouldn't have continued
the corruption.  And he wouldn't have almost died because Voldy
wouldn't have gotten his hands on him.

I just really don't think we know how the world would have been
without him, just as I don't think we can judge the type of person he
was on the few snippets of information we have about him.

~Adam (Prep0strus)