Could Harry have saved Snape? (was Reacting to DH...)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 178091


> > Alla:
> > Eh, okay. In RL, sure. To me not in the book verse. Harry saw him 
> > commit murder.
> 
> zgirnius:
> As we and Harry now know, he saw no such thing. He thought he saw 
> Snape murder Dumbledore; he actually only saw Snape kill 
Dumbledore. 
> This is why we have trials instead of deciding people are murderers 
> and acting accordingly, is I think Pippin's point. 


Alla:

Yes, I thought I understood Pippin's point and **mine** is that there 
was no reason whatsoever in Harry's mind to doubt that he was 
watching a murder. That we learned that it was a killing on request 
afterwards is IMO irrelevant to Harry's state of mind when it 
happened.

If Harry already watched Pensieve memories and then stood there in 
Shack to me would be different story.

We have trials, sure, in RL. Story has trials when it is needed for 
the plot purposes only, no?

I do not remember social services knocking on Dursleys' door and 
announcing that they are guilty of abuse or at least of neglect. I 
did not **need** to read about social services to determine that. I 
saw what they did to Harry, in my mind, they are guilty, guilty, 
guilty.

I believe that the rules of determining who is guilty or innocent in 
story are a bit relaxed in comparison to RL, meaning that as a reader 
if I see the character commiting something horrible, I do not need a 
jury to tell me that.

I do not see how Harry could doubt for one second that he saw a 
murder IMO of course.

And his eyes did not play a trick of him after all, no? There was no 
fake AK or anything like that. Harry did not have all information to 
figure out what happened on the Tower - he did not know about the 
plan, etc.

But what he saw, was exactly what he saw - Snape killing Dumbledore, 
just on Dumbledore's request. Made me think again that importance 
of "Harry's filter" is really not that important in general.

Harry often does not have information, but what he sees, he sees 
correctly often enough IMO.

In any event, sorry for rambling.


> > Alla:
> > I guess Voldemort is then technically an innocent man 
> > too? I doubt JKR planned to put him in front of the jury, 
Voldemort 
> > I mean.
> 
> zgirnius:
> Actually, since Harry and we have been blessed (cursed is perhaps a 
> better word) with direct perception of Voldemort's mind as he 
> committed several murders, I would say perhaps not. However, 
Harry's 
> actions towards him were consistent with such technical innocence. 
> All Harry did was defend himself using a Disarming Charm when 
> attacked by Voldemort. No one is suggesting he has an obligation to 
> let Voldemort kill him. (A second time <g> ).

Alla:

I would say Harry's actions towards Voldemort were consistent with 
Harry's general unwillingness to kill people ( Lupin chasticising 
him), but that's IMO, not that Harry thought oh yeah, Voldemort is 
innocent, I better be careful with him. Again, speculating.

And that's good that nobody is suggesting that Harry has an 
obligation to let Voldemort kill him, but it appears to me that it is 
sort of implied, no?

Supposedly Harry has to **fight** Voldemort in the Shack on the off 
topic chance that it may help Snape. And again, what if Snape turns 
around and kills him for all Harry knows? And maybe Voldemort kills 
him first?


 
> > Alla:
> > To demand from Harry that he would save the murderer? I think 
Harry 
> > had enough to take care of. I see no reason why Harry should have 
> > thought of Snape at that time any difference than Voldemort, 
Bella, 
> > or other DE? I see no difference if I were to look from Harry POV.
> 
> zgirnius:
> I would expect the idea of providing medical attention to any and 
all 
> of the individuals named to cross Harry's mind, were he to have 
come 
> upon them bleeding severely and helpless, as he did in fact 
encounter 
> Snape. He has done as much in the past - how is Peter Pettigrew, 
> about to be murdered by his vengeful friends, any different?

Alla:
Yes, Peter. Another one where I do not remember JKR putting on trial 
to determine his guilt or innocence. Have you doubted his guilt in 
betraying the Potters for one second? I did not. I read about his 
betrayal, that was enough for me.

I think what Harry did for Peter was entirely different. He knew that 
Sirius and Lupin will not attack him and Peter has no chance to 
attack him either and he was supposedly already captured.

Oh. But medical attention is different. Sure, if Harry comes across 
the Snape **already** bleeding, etc, I would want him to try to do 
medical help or whatever. But maybe I did not understand Pippin's 
point after all.

I thought Pippin wanted Harry to challenge Voldemort to help Snape. 
And that I find very disagreeable. Harry is expected to risk his life 
for the person who sold prophecy to Voldemort and who supposedly 
murdered Dumbledore in front of his eyes? Not in my mind at all.

And keep in mind that I think I am being extremely generous to Snape 
here as far as I am concerned. I **hate** with passion what Snape did 
to Harry in school, but if it was ALL that Snape did to Harry, 
meaning not helped making him an orphan , or murdered Dumbledore, I 
would have expected Harry to help. Not that it would have made me 
terribly upset if he would not, but I would have thought that yes, 
Harry should help the greasy bastard, despite what he did to him in 
school. Because what happened in school is not life and death stuff.

> zgirnius:
<SNIP of the quote, go UPTHREAD to read it>
> It's a question of what we believe about the narration of the HP 
> series, to drag another thread into this discussion. In whose 
opinion 
> was Snape dying? If in Harry's, then the use of that word indicates 
> he believed that Snape was about to die. In which case, his failure 
> to consider medical intervention is natural because in his opinion, 
> Snape was beyond help. Harry does all he can for the dying man - he 
> goes to Snape, sees Snape is trying to speak and bends low to hear 
> him, listens to his last words, takes the memories, and carries out 
> Snape's dying request.

Alla:

Sure, that too. My friend still has my book, ugh, so I cannot reread 
to check for myself how I perceive it now ( not that I want much to 
reread this scene), but that is true too.

Harry does not flee, he even approaches Snape, etc.

Did I mention that I think Harry did for Snape so much more than 
Snape ever deserved? ;)

I mean, again, I think Harry's behaviour here maybe in line with 
speculation that shock prevented him from acting ( YAY) earlier, but 
he does what you said and he does not glee or anything.

But again, I do not care one way or another. If Harry thought Snape 
was beyond help, he stayed anyways, which is great, that is for a man 
he wanted to do something very bad a year before.

If he did not help because he thought that is one DE killing another 
and that is all there is to it, I am fine with it too.

JMO,

Alla