DD and LV (Was: The problems with DD being gay)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 178299

delwynmarch wrote:
<big snip>
> And by the way: there is even less evidence for DD being gay.
<bigger snip>

Carol responds:

I agree. So forgive me if I ignore your main argument (actually, I
think that the attraction was primarily intellectual, but I've already
stated my position on that) and focus on some of your supporting
points. (BTW, it's good to have you back. It's been about two years,
hasn't it?)

Susan McGee (I think--the attributions are a bit hard to follow):
> 
> > We don't know that he never confronted Tom Riddle. We do know he
spent his life fighting Tom Riddle.
> 
Del:
> No he didn't. He only fought LV once LV came to power. He'd known
for many long decades before that time that Tom Riddle was up to no
good, but he did exactly *nothing* to thwart him right until LV
started waging war on the WW. <snip>

Carol responds:

Forgive me, but I'm going to quibble here. He didn't do "exactly
nothing." He told young Tom that there were laws in the WW and rules
at Hogwarts and that thieving, for example, would not be tolerated.
The result was a change in Tom's behavior that emphasized charm and
charisma (rather like GG without the merriment), showing respect for
the teachers that he probably did not feel and outwardly conforming to
norms and rules. Unfortunately, the eagerness to learn combined with
feigned humility and surface charm made him even more dangerous, more
seductive in a nonsexual way to the Slytherin boys who idolized him
and unsuspected by any adult except DD. But at least he wasn't openly
using Dark magic like Grindelwald, who was actually expelled from
*Durmstrang* (apparently for torturing his fellow students or
experimenting on them in some way like some sort of magical junior Nazi).

DD did undo most of the damage caused by DD's framing of Hagrid,
giving him a job as (assistant?) gamekeeper. He made sure that Armando
dippett didn't hire Tom Riddle as DADA teacher. And he went after
information about the murders he suspected that Tom Riddle had
committed, obtaining memories from, among others, Hokey the House-Elf
and Morfin Gaunt before they died. The Caractacus Burke and Bob Ogden
memories probably were obtained at that time as well. And he was
keeping a watch on LV's movements. It seems that, despite their less
than cordial relations, Aberforth was already spying for Albus at the
time that Riddle again applied for the DADA post. He knew the names of
Tom's traveling companions and that they called themselves Death
Eaters. Perhaps, after the DADA encounter, he even suspected that LV
was making Horcruxes based on his altered appearance. What else he
suspected or did is not clear. He did not move *openly* against LV
till he showed himself, true, and we don't know at what point he
formed the first Order of the Phoenix, but he was certainly on the
alert for trouble from him. I think he knew perfectly well that Riddle
had murdered both Myrtle and the Riddles but could not prove it. (He
may have understood Parseltongue, but he couldn't speak it and
consequently, couldn't find and open the Chamber of Secrets. He did
try to persuade the Wizengamot of Tom's guilt in the Riddle memory
using Morfin's true memory, but by that time it was too late for a new
trial; Morfin was dead.)

Del:
> Change GG to Tom Riddle, and it provides you with a perfect
explanation for why DD didn't even try to stop Tom's rise to evil power.

Carol:

Didn't he? I've just outlined some of the steps he took. I'm not sure
what else he could have done, not yet having a Snape to plant as a
spy. He had some influence within the Wizengamot and may have
persuaded some of them that Riddle was dangerous, but they could not
take action before he was yet suspected of any provable crimes. And DD
himself, for reasons that we think we know (fear of being tempted by
power) refused to become MoM. I'm not sure what else he could do
except form the Order of the Phoenix to counter the DEs. (And be a
whole lot less secretive, but then he wouldn't be DD.)

va32h wrote:
<snip>
> > Dumbledore suspected Tom regarding the basilisk, but did not know
for certain,

Del: 
> Then why not *try* and know for certain? Neither Tom nor DD ever
said anything about DD actually investigating the murder of Myrtle. He
didn't talk to Tom, he didn't talk to any of Tom's gang, nothing. DD
admitted that Tom's years at Hogwarts were marked by increasing
nastiness, but nobody ever indicated that DD ever *did* anything about
this nastiness. DD admits that he strongly suspected Tom, Tom says
that DD never trusted him and was always keeping a watchful eye on
him, but that's it. No *action*. Just wearily looking at what is going
on, just like he was doing with GG.

Carol:
What could he do besides what I've already outlined? He couldn't find
the CoS, which would prove that Myrtle was killed by a Basilisk and
not by an Acromantula. And talking to Moaning Myrtle, who only
remembered a pair of great big yellow eyes, wouldn't help much, even
if the Wizengamot accepted the testimony of a ghost, especially if
Acromantulas also happened to have great big yellow eyes. DD wasn't
the headmaster, and the headmaster trusted Riddle. He had no proof of
Riddle's guilt, only suspicions. The same thing with the nasy
incidents that Tom made sure could not be traced to him and his
friends. And what could possibly be accomplished by talking to Tom,
who would deny everything, except make clear to Tom where his greatest
danger would ultimately come from?

Va32: 
> > and it's very much Dumbledore's nature to give people the benefit
of the doubt.
> 
Del:
> That's the image he likes to project, but I don't buy it. That's
nothing more than a handy excuse to justify not taking action IMO. <snip>

Carol:

I'm not sure about "the image he likes to project," but I do agree
that giving people the benefit of a doubt (second chances, as the HP
characters refer to it) is more the impression that DD gives than his
actual "nature." DD had very good reasons for giving Snape a second
chance, but benevolence was rather far down the list. He did help
Hagrid recover from his disgrace, but Hagrid was a child and an orphan
with no other protector. (To be sure, Tom was also an orphan and a
child to begin with, but he was never vulnerable or in need of
protection.) He also gave Trelawney a second chance after she failed
her job interview, but she, too, needed protection, both for
humanitarian and practical reasons. Tom is a different matter. First
there's no benefit of the doubt (or second chance) involved. DD never
trusted him to begin with, and made certain that he didn't get the
DADA position on either attempt. And I don't see how he could "take
action" when Tom had done nothing that he could be proven guilty of.
When DD had a chance, he *did* gather evidence. Had both Hokey and
Morfin not died, DD could have presented evidence that they were not
guilty of the murders they were framed for. As it was, they died
"guilty" of Toms's crimes.

Va32:
> > Dumbledore did speak to Tom directly - but in that Dumbledore way
of trying to get the guilty party to voluntarily fess up. 
> 
Del:
> Except that DD already knew perfectly well that Tom only fesses up
when forced to do it. Remember the stash of stolen objects at the
orphanage? Tom only confessed because he realised that DD already knew
all about it. <snip stuff on Severus and Sirius because it doesn't fit
the point I'm discussing>

Carol:
In which case, I really don't see the point in talking to Tom, who
already knew that DD suspected him.

> We know what DD's feelings towards Snape are because we are *shown*
their interactions. We don't need to infer from some indirect clues.
We are shown DD telling Snape "you disgust me", we are shown DD
dismissing Snape whenever Snape goes on a rant about Harry, we are
shown DD publicly humiliating Snape by stealing the House Cup from
under Snape's nose and handing it to Gryffindor, and so on. So we know
that DD definitely doesn't have a crush on adult Snape.

Carol responds:

Although I certainly agree that DD did not have a crush on Snape (who
was several generations younger than DD was), either as an adult or as
a boy. But you're being a bit selective in your evidence here. DD's
"you disgust me" is a response to one specific incident. Clearly, he
does not retain that feeling. "I'm fortunate to have you, Severus,
very fortunate" is one of many counterexamples. Ultimately, DD trusted
Snape with both his life (the ring Horcrux) and his death. You don't
give that kind of trust to a man who disgusts you. And he fears for
Snape when he sends him on that dangerous mission near the end of GoF,
unable to speak for several minutes after Snape leaves. Snape is both
his employee and his trusted agent, and at times he's remarkably
tolerant of him. I think that they respect each other and there's an
undercurrent of affection that neither shows openly, both being
reserved men who have been deeply hurt in the past. That, of course,
is just my view, but judging the Snape/DD relationship by "you disgust
me" is like judging Ron/Hermione by "no wonder she hasn't got any
friends" or by Hermione's canary attack on Ron. (Not that I'm
suggesting a romantic relationship between Snape and DD. I'm
absolutely not. 

I'm just saying that the encounter between the supposedly loyal DE and
the man who knows that he reported the Prophecy to LV cannot be used
as the basis for their subsequent relationship. DD would not have
hired Snape to teach Potions, for example, had he not already begun to
trust him and had he not already risked his life for Lily's sake and
to atone for his huge and terrible mistake. Anyway, I do agree that
it's obvious that DD does not have a crush on Snape. There's still
some evidence for a fatherly relationship toward a prodigal son, DD's
sexual orientation notwithstanding, but it was obviously a slow
process and we would need to place all the Snape/DD scenes in a
chronological sequence to see it since the lens of "The Prince's Tale"
distorts it somewhat. His last words in life are spoken to Snape,
"Severus, please!" He is begging the man he trusts above all others to
do the thing that no one else can do, kill him at his own request.
Portrait!DD's last words to Snape are a warning to be very careful (to
which Snape tells him not to worry' he has a plan). Dead!DD expresses
regret for Snape's death ("Poor Severus!"), which results from the
flaw in the plan.

<snip>
Del: 
> Anywhere. Just a small picture of DD with another man somewhere in
the Headmaster's office, and Harry realising in passing what it means,
would have been enough. Instead, we get to hear again and again about
Fawkes and the softly stirring silver instruments.

Carol:
Or the exchanges with Snape and Fudge and Lucius Malfoy and so forth,
not one of which gives any indication of DD's sexual orientation--or
any indication that he is or ever has been a sexual being. Certainly,
that thought never occurs to Harry.
> 
Del:
> > Dumbledore's feelings for Harry are paternal.  They are so
blatantly paternal (IMO of course) that I can't imagine how anyone
could read them otherwise!  Dumbledore's whole speech at the end of
OoTP about Harry being too young to know his fate, wanting him to be
happy, not wanting to burden him with adult responsibilities -
everything about that interaction screams father-son to me. <snip>

Carol:
Not so much paternal as grandfatherly, IMO. All those remarks about
the difference between youth and age. It's rather like Gandalf and
Frodo in that respect, with a hundred years' difference rather than a
thousand or two. That and DD's invariable smugness about his
intellectual superiority, but I suppose he does that with everybody
(except dear Gellert). A bit annoying, actually.

> And what about before the rise to power? GG didn't just lie still
all that time. He was actively preparing his rise to power. But we
have absolutely no indication that DD ever did anything to change GG's
mind or prevent him from rising to power in the first place.

Carol responds:

We really don't have much information here, but I do think that DD
turned a blind eye to what GG was doing--and we know he turned a deaf
ear to the pleas of the British WW for five years. My impression is
that while the threat was confined to continental Europe, the British
WW in general left GG alone, but when he started looking toward
Britain, they grew afraid and turned to DD, who waited five years
before finally confronting his old friend and co-conspirator, whatever
his feelings for him had become. (Was it really just fear that he, DD,
had killed Ariana? Was it residual love for a mass murdererer? Was it
guilt? Was it cowardice? Maybe DD himself didn't know. We all put off
unpleasant confrontations, but not quite on that scale)
> 
Del:
> Exactly the same thing as happened later on with Tom Riddle. <snip>

Carol:

I completely disagree. See the evidence presented above. And I think
we can safely say that there's no indication that DD ever plotted with
LV to take over the world, nor was he under any delusions about his
goodness. DD lied to himself about Gellert Grindelwald. But he was
much older and wiser when he met the eleven-year-old Tom Riddle, and
he made it quite clear who was in charge during their first encounter.
DD was "the only one [Voldemort] ever feared. I don't think that
Grindelwald (who, for all his faults, died bravely, contemptuously
defying the upstart LV) was afraid of anyone, even in that 1945 duel,
which, unfortunately, we didn't get to see.

Carol, wishing for the old Dumbledore of the first four books, whom
she had no difficulty liking despite occasional bouts of arrogance