Canon citation requested (was Re: The problems with DD being gay)

[or.phan_ann]

No: HPFGUIDX 178491

I hope you'll forgive my butting into an argument, but I think there 
are a few interesting points in delwynmarch's post about which I'd 
like to say a couple of things at unfortunate length, as is my wont. 
Apologies in advance...

Novels obviously don't describe everything that happens to their 
characters during its duration. They'd be unreadable and probably 
unwritable if they did; however much of the world is shown, much more 
has to be implied. I don't remember "Pride and Prejudice" ever 
explicitly stating that it takes place on a round-ish planet orbiting 
the Sun, remarkably similar to one many of her readers would already 
be familiar with, differentiated only by tiny alterations to suit her 
novel, such as invented characters. Anyone wishing to argue that 
there are in fact dragons in the Prejudiceverse is onto a hiding to 
nothing. On the other hand, it's pretty reasonable to assume that 
Russia does exist. Implication and likeliness play a major part in 
describing the world a novel takes place in.

Now implication works well enough for physical things. What about 
intangible ones? Does the fact that Austen never mentions Gaelic 
being spoken imply that it doesn't exist in the Prejudiceverse? Well, 
that would be inconsistent with the Prejudiceverse's close 
relationship to the Realverse, and she has not explicitly stated that 
this difference is so. (If it turns out she does, forgive me, and 
choose something she actually doesn't mention.) Therefore, the text 
and the universe are at odds: the text is not a reliable source for 
determining what the world it takes place in is like. (Note that 
while Gaelic speakers are very tangible, the language itself is not. 
The same is true for homosexuals and homosexuality.)

This does not mean that conclusions cannot be drawn from the text, 
however. It's fair to assume from Austen that Gaelic was not, or not 
often, spoken in the circles in which her characters moved. We can 
also draw literary rather than historical conclusions.

delwynmarch wrote in message #178465:

> Heterosexuality is the largely majoritarian sexuality in the RW. So
> the rule is that anyone who isn't expressely said to not be straight
> is probably straight. [snip] the rules of the RW can be
> automatically transplanted to the WW, but that works only as long as
> they are not directly contradicted by the content of the books.

Ann:
I do not think that this is so. There's plenty of evidence that the 
Wizarding World is *not* like the Muggle World. To take the most 
relevant, it's almost entirely composed of people who can perform 
magic, and it's in a constant state of secrecy lest it be discovered 
by the Muggles. MW rules *cannot* be transferred to the WW. A minor 
example: Muggle office workers have to live fairly close to their 
workplaces. Wizards can live *anywhere* and Floo/Apparate in.

The attitudes to race in the WW appear to be much more relaxed than 
in the RW, as you point out. Draco apparently mentions Angelina 
Johnson's dreadlocks in OotP, and what he says about the Weasleys in 
Madame Malkin's in PS/SS might be construed as anti-Irish. But as far 
as I can tell that's it, from everyone. Much more important is blood 
purity, on which Draco is capable of spouting vileness far in excess. 
This is directly linked to the WW's security. 

In other words, I think it's implied that the WW is socially fairly 
liberal, as long as nobody threatens its seclusion, which is where 
most of its neuroses are located. (Wizards might not be thrilled at 
this liberalisation, however, and just see it as a necessary evil.) 
Consider how casually Obliviation is used, for instance; now imagine 
the RW government trying to make that legal. With homosexuality being 
a very low-risk activity in this respect, we have here another 
situation of the text and world being at odds, or rather, what's 
implied and what's explicitly stated being at odds.

And as I mentioned Draco's insults above: if homosexuality is taboo 
in the WW, why does nobody use it as an insult? JKR doesn't mind 
showing Draco using racist insults, so why would she mind him using 
homophobic ones?

Delwynwarch said:

> White caucasian is the largely majoritarian ethnicity in the British
> RW. So the rule is that anyone who isn't expressly said to not be
> white is probably white.
> Case in point: Blaise Zabini.

Ann:
However, one can tell what ethnicity someone belongs to by looking at 
them, and can be described by the narrator. That's not true for 
homosexuality. (No Elton John jokes, please.)

Delwynmarch:

> Well, what the books tell us is that there simply isn't ANY visible
> non-straight character around Harry. None. Zero. Period. No same-sex
> couple kissing in the corridors or bushes or dancing at the Yule    
> Ball. No same-sex partner, present or past, mentioned for anyone. 

Ann:
Given that we're arguing about Dumbledore here, it's not surprising 
that we never see him kissing anyone around Harry. True, there isn't 
any explicit homosexuality in the books, but it's more reasonable to 
assume that we're not being told about what's going on than that 
there's no homosexuality at all. (Remember Austen and the Gaels?) The 
WW may have a different culture to the MW, but homosexuality is 
hardly unique to our culture, or even our species. In any case, homo- 
and heterosexuality are hardly mutually exclusive options.

Delwynmarch:

> In conclusion:
> 1- Assuming that there must be gay wizards because there are gay
> Muggles is normal.
> 2- BUT this assumption must then be checked against what the books
> actually say.
> 3- And what the books say is that wizards are all straight.
> 4- DD in particular is described as neither straight nor gay.
> 5- Thus, both normal assumption and the way the WW's sexuality is
> described make him straight.
> 
> DD is straight, both by classic character building assupmtion, and
> because everyone is described as straight in the WW.

Ann:
The books do *not* say that all wizards are straight. This is in any 
case a circular argument, because we're discussing Dumbledore's 
sexuality. I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "classic 
character building assupmtion" - that heterosexuality is normal?

Finally, note that points 4 and 5 above are contradictory: if 
Dumbledore is not described as being straight or gay, how can you 
conclude that he is straight?

Ann, who assumed Dumbledore was gay from DH