[HPforGrownups] Re: "Pathetic" Muggle-borns (Was: JKR messed up........ no.)

[silmariel]

No: HPFGUIDX 178529

On 10/26/07, pippin_999 <foxmoth at qnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Silmariel:
>  > Exactly. People flee in war times, if they can, why a full trained
>  > wizard couldn't? It's far easier to escape from UK by magical means
>  > than as a muggle, and the world isn't at war, it's just the UK.
>  >
>  > Another plot hole.
>
>  Pippin:
>
>  Is it? Britain is an island. Most wizards can't apparate over long
>  distances, and the Ministry has the means to trace illegal portkey
>  use.

Silmariel:
So what? Supossedly Sirius made swimming a distance far longer than
the channel, in a pathetic mental and physical state after having been
in jail ten years, and we've seen how DD had no problems swimming like
a much younger man in cold waters, and there are the spells that used
the trichampion wizards, turn into a fish, make an air bubble, etc.

They can trace illegal portkeys, as if one minds being detected after
the flight. Portkeys do not prevent illegal use, only warn after the
fact, when you are in other country.

Pippin:
>  We know from what Hagrid told us that he wasn't exactly
>  welcome on his journey abroad with Maxime. Since Durmstrang
>  has a policy of keeping out Muggleborn students, the governments
>  of the European WW can't be great defenders of Muggleborn
>  rights either.  Not to mention the language problem.

Silmariel:
I hope Germany isn't all Europe (do you think Beauxbatons is less
bigoted since the headmaster is half giant?), but I really think
trying to seek refuge in Dark Arts Durstramg is quite, impractical. I
wasn't thinking in Europe, more, in all the world. Language problems
are problems when you haven't magic, it's not like WW magic doesn't
include magically learned languages.

Pippin:
>
>  Plus, if Muggleborns don't cooperate with the government, then they're
>  proving they're disloyal -- it's a catch22.
>
Silmariel:

I don't see the point. They're fleeing from a genocide, should someone
stay to be slaughtered just to prove their loyal? It doesn't matter
what they do, the powers that be would demonize them.

Pippin:
>  It might be wishful thinking to suppose that because the population
>  has wands they wouldn't be helpless if they were arrested without
>  warning. DE's are just as capable of using Expelliarmus as
>  our hero, right?

Silmariel:
Why should they wait? The moment one person dissapears, everyone else
should consider themselves in a war. Should they just wait there?
Muggles just can't leave for another country, travels are very risky,
but wizards have the means.

Pippin:
>  Then too there's the demoralizing effect of being turned out of
>  your home and deprived of all your possessions, something we're
>  familiar with here in Southern California (I'm okay, thanks). But
>  look at Trelawney. No one took away her wand, but she  still
>  seemed completely unable to cope with losing her job and her
>  home.

Silmariel:
Of course, that's terrible, but it's better than losing life, no one
is saying leaving your home is easy, it's the kind of things a war
forces you to do. I don't think Trelawney, alcoholic and isolated, can
be taken as the measure of muggleborns, she's like a Merope.


Pippin:
>  Also, we don't know how secure the Muggleborns were before
>  DH. Among the adult wizards Harry meets, who's got a Muggle-
>  type name? Stan Shunpike and Ernie Prang are all I can think
>  of,  and crewing the Knight Bus doesn't seem to be a prestige job
>  or a well-paying one. You probably don't squirrel away a vault
>  full of galleons with a job like that. Slughorn mentions a prestigious
>  Muggleborn or two, but they could be the Lena Horne and Jackie
>  Robinson of the WW. Lily, we now know, never had to find a job. So
>  maybe Muggleborns weren't as well off as we thought to begin with.

Silmariel:
She had seven books to have that clear, I didn't notice, only
Slytherins assume that Hermione should be found an slave work. I think
if the general WW punishes Hermione and expects her to be kept down
workless as an adult, that should have been seen explicitly. Same for
the other muggleborns, I haven't seen separated educations for
muggleborns, nor second quality wands to impair their training.


Pippin:
>  One person's plot hole is another's unconscious assumption.

Silmariel:
Yes, lots of readers don't notice plotholes in CoS, for example. And
ignoring the 'fridge logic', it's a good reading - just think you have
universal translators.

Pippin:
> I
>  think part of what JKR wants to do is make us aware of how many
>  unconscious assumptions we make. Or maybe just uninformed ones.

Silmariel:
I think she could have wrote a good book about bigotry, or a wave, but
she stopped at the surface. She also wanted to make a statement about
slavery (from interviews), and look the mess she did.

Pippin:
>  You think  American citizens wouldn't cooperate with rounding up
>  a minority and letting them be taken to internment camps? History
>  says you'd be wrong.

I'd never think that, from personal experience. I wrote it can be
done, even counting with having to wipe a trained 25% of the
population. AFAIK genocides are sadly easy to create, and no
population is free from that. Is as brainwashes, no one notices when
they are being brainwashed, except trained proffesionals (and that
doesn't mean they can scape from it, just they'll notice what's
happening to them).

Silmariel