Harry's remark about Kreacher WAS: Re: JKR messed up........ no.

[va32h]

No: HPFGUIDX 178563

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:

> Pippin:
> No, I'm suggesting that Harry knows that Kreacher will be as hurt
> and miserable as Winky if Harry were to insist on making his own 
> sandwiches, and that if making a sandwich at that moment would
> create difficulties for Kreacher, Kreacher would let him know and
> Harry would care about it. If Kreacher were a wage slave,
> how would it be  different? 

va32h:

This makes no sense to me. Nothing in the text says (or even suggests
IMO)  that Harry ever intended to make his own sandwich and only
wanted to give Kreacher the option of doing it for him to make
Kreacher feel better.  

"thinking now only of the four-poster bed lying waiting for him in
Gryffindor Tower, and wondering whether Kreacher might bring him a
sandwich there." (pg 749).

What part of that phrase suggests that Harry's original plan was to
nip down to the kitchen and fix his own sandwich? Harry is thinking
*only* of going to bed according to the text.  Then it occurs to him
that Kreacher could bring him a sandwich. 

> As for whether Harry *would* care...
> 
> If the dementors blew a different personality into Dudley, then
> Snape blew a different personality into Harry. Harry, on the floor 
> in Dumbledore's office, had a spiritual death and re-awakening.
> He had hit bottom, nothing he could learn in the pensieve was as bad
> as the reality he was facing (canon paraphrase.) And what he learned 
> in the pensieve was where seeking glory and vengeance, as Snape
> did,  would lead him. 

va32h:

In terms of Harry's feelings toward Kreacher, I saw those as being
totally resolved after the Kreacher's Tale chapter.  Harry felt
sympathy for the elf, listened to Hermione's advice as to how to treat
Kreacher, and thus treated Kreacher kindly all while accepting
Kreacher's role as Harry's slave.  When Harry lived at 12GP, he
neither said nor thought anything in canon that would suggest he was
uncomfortable with having his meals cooked, robes laundered, and house
cleaned by Kreacher.  Based on the description in the chapter "Magic
is Might" - the little household at 12GP is going along just fine.
Harry requires no soul-searching or spiritual awakening regarding
Kreacher.  Harry accepted his role as Kreacher's master.  I see no
change in Harry's attitude toward Kreacher from that chapter to  the
sentence quoted above. 

> As for the implication that by not abolishing slavery, JKR is somehow
> saying that it's good...

va32h:

The problem is that elves cannot be entirely analogous to slavery
because elves - according to canon - are biologically and inherently
happy as slaves.  I don't think JKR is saying slavery is good.  I
think she's saying that elves are not humans, and we can't just say
"well humans wouldn't be happy this way so they can't possibly be
happy that way either."

Someone else suggested - ages ago - that elves in HP were more
analogous to dogs.  I think that's very apt comparison.  A dog doesn't
think the way a human does and it's pointless to project how we might
feel if we were being treated the way a dog is treated, because the
dog just doesn't feel the same way we do.  But that doesn't mean that
the dog (or elf) doesn't deserve to be treated kindly or that there
aren't certain responsibilities one bears as the owner of a dog (or elf).

> Pippin
> who is not an expert on the civil war and will gladly accept correction
> ( discussions of matters raised in this post not related to HP
> should go on OT-Chatter, please)

va32h

How does one transport a thread from one list to another?  Because
yes, I would argue with some of the things you suggested regarding the
Civil War.