Harry's remark about Kreacher WAS: Re: JKR messed up........ no.

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 178614

> Magpie:
> I don't know what wage slaves have to do with anything here. It's not 
> like Harry has to be either one, or you have to choose one or the 
> other. 

Pippin:
I was trying to point out that it seems what you are objecting to is
a power differential, not slavery. If Kreacher was dependent on 
wages, he would not feel free to refuse his boss's orders, and the
abolition of slavery in the WW would not change that one bit.

> Magpie:
> I don't see "Maybe I'll have Kreacher fix me a sandwich" as a sign of 
> his great spiritual awakening or mature growth.

Pippin:
LOL! Of course not. The spiritual awakening is, to me, the reason
that Harry will support  Hermione's desire to improve things
for the Elves despite that if she ever succeeds he'll be out a
sandwich maker. He wasn't entirely in sympathy with it before.

 We know that Elf rights matter very much to Hermione,
and canon does not give us any reason to expect that to change. We
also know, from the efforts of Fudge and Scrimgeour, that an 
endorsement from Harry Potter is a big deal. 

That Elf rights didn't make it into the epilogue doesn't prove to
me that nothing was being done for them. The mist is JKR's invitation
to us to imagine what we're not being told, IMO. And after making 
an issue out of Crouch Sr's neglecting  his son for his public duties, 
what  message would it send to have the Trio, who are on that 
platform to see their children off, spend the whole time talking 
shop, as if their kids, even on their first day of school, weren't
worth even a few minutes undivided attention.  


Magpie:
. If Kreacher said stuff 
> like, "Kreacher is a little worn out right now, maybe Master could 
> skip his sandwich?" he wouldn't be a House Elf. 

Pippin:
Huh? So Kreacher wasn't being a House Elf when he was screaming,
"Won't!" at the top of his lungs, and the Hogwarts Elves weren't
being House Elves when they pushed the Trio out of the kitchen
for insulting them, and Winky wasn't being a House Elf when
she withdrew from service by drinking herself into oblivion?

We see over and over that  House Elves feel distress 
when they're being treated badly and  find ways
to make it known to their masters. When  they are happy
to serve that's their *choice*, which canon asks us to respect
even though we can't understand it and it calls up uncomfortable
associations with lies about slavery in the real world. There
is absolutely no hint in canon that we should believe
anyone who tells us real slaves are happy. We are shown
we shouldn't accept the authority of teachers or government
or books or parents as the last word on anything. Books,
as someone mentioned, can be misleading. <g>

I took the mention of Kreacher as JKR's way of telling us
that Kreacher had survived, that he was okay, and that
Harry had come to terms with the awkward embarrassing
situation of owning an Elf -- a bit like the story of 
Dumbledore and Arianna, but with a happier ending. 

Of course it would have been happiest of all if 
Arianna and Kreacher could have been cured of their
dependency, but that's not always an option. 

I vehemently disagree with the idea that people in an
unequal relationship can't genuinely love. That would leave
very little room for love in the world. Neville's parents,
to take an extreme example, can't be allowed any power.
Does that mean he is he exploiting them by accepting
the gum wrappers?

I just finished re-reading a Pratchett book, The Amazing
Maurice and his Educated Rats, which I think has the
kind of ending some people were hoping for in Harry Potter.
A new era dawns between warring peoples, and everyone
is happy about it except for "some minds you couldn't
change with a hatchet." It's a nice read, and I recommend
it. 

But Rowling's universe is  more real to me, if not
quite so uplifting, because, as this list proves, *most* minds 
can't be changed with a hatchet.<g>  And so, for those
who would like hatchets to be a last resort, progress
must come slowly. 

If you think about it, Harry's four poster is not his
proper place anymore, he hasn't slept in it for almost a
year, and unless Kreacher has thought to fetch his things,
they aren't there. 

And I bet that aside from any captured DE's there isn't
a soul in the castle who wouldn't drop everything to make
a sandwich for Harry if he so much as hinted that he wanted one.

It's a brave new world for Harry, he just hasn't realized it yet. 

Magpie:
 It's quite another for me to believe 
> another woman should correctly be treated as a piece of property 
> because that's what she believes she should be treated as, which is 
> what the House Elves are. Yes it's telling us to respect other 
> peoples' ideas, but it's also telling us to see other people as 
> potentially biologically made to serve us--of course people find it 
> confusing.

Pippin:
Who are these confused people?
I haven't heard from anyone who finished the book and thought,
gosh, what the world needs is  to train/breed a bunch of people to 
serve us as House Elves. I think canon shows clearly that although
the idea has attractions, if you could do that, it would be cruel 
and unwise. 

It does show how, once you have such a situation, it isn't easily
set right, which is all the more reason not to get into it. It
seems like what you're worried about is people picking up on
the attractions of having a slave race, but not getting the
part where it's shown to be cruel, demeaning and just plain 
weird. IMO,  you would have to be reading very selectively, with
a pro-slavery agenda already in place, to pick up a message
like that.  

Can anyone imagine a member of the KKK waving their
copy of DH around and saying, "See! Rowling supports
slavery!" The world would laugh itself sick <vbg> 

It seems to me that it takes a fair amount of nitpicking and
convoluted reasoning to make the books into anything but what
their author says they are, a prolonged plea for tolerance and
understanding, and an encouragement to question authority.

Pippin