JKR's intent (was:Re: A sandwich)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 178683

> >>lizzyben:
> > What if she didn't? The arc is only confusing or contradictory if
> > you're approaching it from the standpoint that the status quo of
> > slavery is bad. Post-DH, I'm not sure that's the correct         
> > standpoint. The subplots of the "magical brethren" actually make 
> > sense if you approach it from a different angle. Maybe it wasn't 
> > about lifting these creatures up, or granting them equality, but 
> > about the Trio learning about & taking their rightful place of   
> > power over them.
> > <snip>
> > And in the last sentence of the last novel, Harry assumes his    
> > noblesse oblige as a slaveholder in the Wizarding World. Maybe   
> > one subplot got muddled, but how is it possible that *every*
> > creature subplot ended w/Harry learning that the prejudice &
> > oppression is justified? That can't be a coincidence.
 
> >>Prep0strus:
> Well, bad writing wouldn't be a coincidence either, really, but it's
> also an explanation aside from 'JKR meant to write something
> subversive'.  With almost every topic you have a subversive,
> inside-out viewpoint to express.  And it's not like they can't be
> defended, and they're certainly interesting.

Betsy Hp:
If it's what the author intended, is it still subversive?  (I'm 
asking out of genuine curiosity, I really don't know.)  But if JKR 
*meant* for Harry to assume his proper role at the top of the WW's 
food-chain, if she *meant* for us to recognize that there are icky 
people in the world that should be labeled and separated out from the 
good folk, is that reading still "subversive"?

And that so many of the "subversive" readings can be defended... 
doesn't that say something?

> >>Prep0strus:
> That being said, I don't believe it was the intent.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Why do you believe that this wasn't JKR's intent?  And to be clear, 
I'm not asking this question with any sort of hostility or to set up 
a zinger or anything.  It's just, I've seen folks say, "JKR would 
never write something like that" to defend against the theory that 
she *did* actually write something like that.  And I'm wondering 
where that conviction comes from.  We don't know JKR personally (at 
least, no one on the list has said they're close personal friends) 
and while we do have her interviews, they are often contradictory 
with each other *and* with the books.

And at least one of the examples Lizzyben used (the treatment of 
goblins) is backed by a JKR interview in which she says that only 
goblin fanatics would protest the Trio's deception over the sword (or 
words to that effect).  Which would mean, I'd think, that yes we 
*are* supposed to look down on goblins on the whole.


> >>Prep0strus:
> <snip> 
> Just as her treatment of Slytherin is not, imo, a support of       
> bigotry, but a statement against the ideas of bigotry.
> 
> But while I don't agree with you, and have a hard time believing you
> really even truly agree with what you said... I don't have a good
> answer.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I just want to take this moment to say I for one (can't speak for 
Lizzyben obviously) absolutely believe that DH really *does* 
encourage bigotry and hate.  I could easily see a group intent on 
teaching hate or distrust of outsiders using DH (and therefore the 
series) as a teaching tool.  All they need to do is link Slytherins 
(or House Elves, or Goblins) to whatever group they're putting down.  
The rest would follow.

I do, however, question whether this was something JKR actually 
*meant* to do. Even with my questions to you above, I have a hard 
time believing JKR actually supports the message I think her books 
put out.  (Does she really think there's such an obvious and 
inviolate pecking order to the world?  Does she want there to be one?)

> >>Prep0strus: 
> It really is very confusing to me.  I don't think the answer is that
> prejudice is justified, but I'm sorry to say that I don't have my   
> own theory to put forth.

Betsy Hp:
I share your confusion.  Honestly, I do.  At first when I finished 
DH, sickened and angry, I decided JKR was plain crazy, filled with 
fury and hate and this is what came of it.  But now...  You can write 
a first draft in a storm of emotion, but did JKR really pour through 
her drafts and consciously *decide* to leave all the petty hate 
intact?

I mean, as Lizzyben points out, the message that the way of the WW 
was right all along is pretty darn consistent.  One or two story-
lines falling by the wayside, maybe, but all of them? So yeah, it 
leaves me wondering what the heck JKR was thinking.

What *was* her intent?

Betsy Hp