A sandwich/Defining the Other

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 178741

> >>Prep0strus:
> <snip>
> I don't particularly CARE why Slytherins think these things.  Maybe 
> I should, and maybe if she had invested more in that, the story    
> would be more interesting... but I don't need the reasons or       
> explanations or background to know that what they're thinking is   
> wrong.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Which works fine in a black and white work where the entire point of 
the story is to see the bad guys get smashed and see the good guys 
win.  And that's the story I believe JKR ended up handing us in the 
end.  It's not the way to look at bigotry, because... well, you're 
not actually looking at it are you?  (The musical "SouthPacific" 
turns takes a deeper look in just one song, IMO.)  But it also means 
that you can't really look at the story and say it's theme is 
obviously "bigotry".  It can't be if it's not actually delt with.  
Instead it's just one more icky trait of the bad guys. 


> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > But if you take the "Other" as the shadow self or character or   
> > group in a story, than I don't think we the reader can just      
> > arbitrarily pick who the representation is going to be.
> > Instead, the text will make it clear. 
> > <snip>

> >>Prep0strus:
> I think the other can be a lot of things, and people can make their
> associations.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, which is why for the purpose of my post I specifically 
defined "other" to be the shadow.  Which you can't just pick and 
choose at will, there needs to be text to support your view.

> >>Prep0strus:
> However, again, reading the books as much more simplistically      
> (which is where I've ended up thinking the books belong), I believe 
> the other of the wizarding world is muggleborns.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
As far as those they fear and keep downtrodden?  Hmm... maybe 
*muggles* but going by Hermione's experience throughout the book, I 
don't buy it.  DH tried to kind of shoe-horn this thing in but since 
we didn't see Hermione treated any differently from her classmates 
through the rest of the books, it strikes me that it's more a pasted 
on "other".

Honestly, I think the simplest and most straightforward reading is 
Slytherin as the *shadow* of the story.  And I'd say the simplest 
more straightforward reading of the WW's *other* would probably be 
muggles.  But I really was going more for a literary critism, in 
which case I'm looking at the books not the world, if that makes 
sense.

> >>Prep0strus:
> ...but I now believe JKR was telling a very straightforward story   
> about bigotry being wrong...
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
If we're going with straightforward I'd say bigotry is more a prop to 
help us identify the bad guys.  I wouldn't say the story is *about* 
bigotry being wrong.  This is something we're supposed to come into 
the books already understanding.  Again, it's not explored enough to 
be about it, IMO.

> >>Prep0strus:
> <snip>
> Really, I have a tough time equating the houses to any four equal
> things that exist in other forms.  This is because the houses are  
> not equal at all.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
You don't have to do it; JKR does is for you. <g>  She says it in the 
interviews and then the houses themselves quite strongly reflect 
their elements throughout the series. Slytherin is quite firmly 
associated with water.

That they're not equal, not neutral is an issue, I agree. I've 
decided that JKR linked the houses with the elements in a sort of 
instinctive way as a story-teller (it's classic and pretty basic 
symbolism, frankly) and then either thought it was kind of neat and 
consciously continued the theme, or was meaning to go somewhere else 
with it, changed her mind, and decided to just ignore the 
implications.

> >>Prep0strus:
> <snip>
> Jumping from water to female... ok.  But it gets further and       
> further away from what actually exists on the page.

Betsy Hp:
No it doesn't.  Not if you're coming at it with the view of literary 
criticism: my reading is actually a pretty simple analyzing of what 
is actually on the page.  Associating water to female is like in art 
associating the color blue to the Virgin Mary.  It's standard.

> >>Prep0strus:
> Just like the assumptions that Fleur is watery, and we assume      
> Slytherin is watery, so that makes Fleur like Slytherin, so Fleur's 
> good qualities must be Slytherin qualities, even though we don't   
> see them in an actual Slytherin.  Too convoluted.

Betsy Hp:
I agree, which is why I wouldn't make such an argument. <g> If I were 
to link her to a house, I think I'd go with Ravenclaw because of air 
stuff.  (I think there's more air tied to Fleur than water anyway.)

If Slytherin were supposed to have good qualities, I'd expect to see 
them represented by an actual, on the page, Slytherin.

> >>Prep0strus:
> If Slytherin was going to represent women, and women as evil,      
> well... we should have a more prominent female in that role.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Doesn't have to work that way. <eg>  All three prominant Slytherins 
have enough female traits to be going on with.  Especially female 
sensuality, which is the evil (or at the very least really scary) for 
our hero.  (And actually, putting your scary female stuff onto a male 
character can be pretty common for woman writers, IIRC.)

> >>Prep0strus:
> As for the rest... people and things are cut and bleed in adventure
> stories.  I don't see how every time something bleeds it is tied to
> menstruation in some way.

Betsy Hp:
Not all the time, no. But you stick that blood onto an orifice tied 
into human sensuality, you have it take place in a deep, dark forest, 
you throw in a dying Unicorn?  Then yes, I'd say you've got...

> >>Prep0strus:
> Voldy the Slytherin is a menstruating rapist?

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  (Isn't literary criticism fun? <g>)

> >>Prep0strus:
> And... Harry faces a killer vagina and rescues a penis? Gah. I      
> would never in a million years have looked at that scene like
> that... if he's the male entering the female pool... I dunno.  I've
> never thought of sex as 'rescuing the penis'.

Betsy Hp:
Harry's not having sex with the pool.  He's saving the symbol of his 
masculinity (the sword) from the evil and deathly female sensuality 
(the pool).  It put in mind that animated flower scene from "Pink 
Floyd's The Wall" for me.  Where the flower "eats" the protagonist.  
Only in this case, Harry won and his penis was safe. 

> >>Prep0strus:
> I'll tell you, that was an interesting read.  I'm not sure how it
> defined the other, and I don't think any of that was in JKR's head,
> but... wow.

Betsy Hp:
I doubt JKR consciously thought about the symbolism here.  But she's 
steeped in Western literature and symbolism so it came through.  
(Usually the best symbolism comes floating up from the subconscious.  
Though I think good writers will sometimes stick stuff in 
purposefully to grab their readership.)

Betsy Hp