Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176554

> Alla:
> 
> I said it is imprecise for me, not notoriously vague, so could we 
> not make me acknowledge something I did not? If something does not 
> translate in the valid categories for you, it does not mean that it 
> cannot be valid for anybody else. Definition of Dark Magic in the 
> series for me lacks mathematical precision, true. BUT I do not need 
> it to be that strict. Despite minor inconsistencies, I have in my 
> head clear enough picture of when the dark magic is dark. As I said, 
> I know it when I see it, for me. To enjoy the story for me it is 
> more than enough.
> 

lizzyben:

So, you know Dark Magic when you see it. That's pretty much the
standard we're left with. 

Alla:
> That is your right of course. I am most definitely NOT taking 
> Snape's word for it. 

lizzyben:

That's your right as well. But whether Snape is telling the truth or
not, it at least raises the possibility that the map is Dark Magic,
and since the definition is so imprecise, there's no way to know for
sure. 

> Lizzyben:
> > And there's more corraboration. Most people would agree that 
> Riddle's
> > Diary is "Dark Magic", correct? When Arthur Weasley finds out about
> > the Diary, he tells Ginny how she should be able to recognize Dark
> > Magic.:
> <SNIP of the quote go UPTHREAD to read it>
> > Now let's listen to Snape's diagnosis of the Marauder's Map:
> <SNIP of the quote go UPTHREAD to read it>
> >> Lupin is lying his head off here, of course. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Really, Lupin **lies** here? And we know that how?

lizzyben:

Because the Map isn't a Zonko's joke item, like Lupin claims?
Honestly, I don't see how anyone can claim that Lupin isn't lying
about that. He sees the Map he created, w/his nickname on it, and
tells Snape that the parchment is a joke item that Harry bought at
Zonko's. That's a lie. He even glances at Harry to warn him not to
tell Snape the truth about the Map.

Alla:
> I read that argument many times in the past - that Map is a dark 
> object based on comparison with diary, actually.
> 
> Arthur does NOT tell Ginny that it is a dark magic object because we 
> do not see where it keeps its brain, doesn't he? He says never trust 
> something like that and then says that it is full of dark magic, so 
> I do not see it as definition. But say it is a definition.  As far 
> as I am concerned, we know now that map really has no brain 
> **anywhere**, not that it is hidden somewhere,  while diary clearly 
> did have brain  IMO. Diary had a piece of Riddle's soul and as far 
> as we know Map has nothing of the kind. I think it is like portraits 
> that have magical imprints of their makers.

lizzyben:

The Map did seem to have a brain in that it could come up w/original
answers to people's questions. It also helped Fred & George to come up
w/the password to get the Map to work. But I guess the portraits have
a brain too - maybe the difference is that you can clearly see which
wizard is behind the talking item, while it isn't so clear w/the Map &
 Diary. Here again, it's sort of impossible to know for sure what
items are "Dark", since we aren't really given a definition of a Dark
item. You know it when you see it, & different people will have
different opinions on the matter. 

> > lizzyben:
> > 
> > Uh-huh. James hated "Dark Arts", but used "Dark Magic" in the form 
> of
> > jinxes, hexes, and curses. The only definition we have for curses 
> is
> > that they are the "worst of dark magic," and we see James using 
> curses.
> > We see James creating a map that at least arguably uses Dark Magic.
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, **we** do not. I see no dark magic in Marauders map anywhere 
> close.  You see it.

lizzyben:

Even if you don't believe that the map is dark magic, under JKR's own
definition, curses are dark magic. So how is it not dark magic when
James uses a curse?

> Alla:
> 
>  There is a quote  upthread that it is  taught in Hogwarts. But 
> since I cannot check, I will leave it to uncertain for now. So, any 
> piece of magic is dark if it is not taught in Hogwarts?
> 
> Or is it only dark if Marauders learned it?

lizzyben:

I'll defer to Mus's post - it isn't taught at Hogwarts, only 7 are
known to exist in 100 years, it's considered potentially subversive by
the Ministry. It's not necessarily "Dark" (which we have no set
definition of anyway), but it's certainly illegal, restricted magic. 

> Lizzyben:
> They had to have learned from books in the
> > "restricted" part of the library. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> They ** had have to**? Okay .

lizzyben:

Where else could they have learned? Only 7 animagi in 100 years, the
skill isn't taught at Hogwarts - where are they getting this knowledge?