Dark Magic / Dumbledore's age/ Goblin's view on property

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 176577

 
> Mike:
<SNIP>
> I've said before that I'm not counting anything that is not 
actually 
> written in the books as what constitutes canon. I offer an example 
> from JKR's website:
> 
> :: What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?
> 
> :: When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to
> :: put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it
> :: was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they 
confided
> :: will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.
> 
> Mike:
> Does that sound like what she wrote in DH? No. IMO, canon is what 
has 
> been written in the books and everything else, like the Black 
Family 
> Tapestry, is only useful when it doesn't conflict with canon. That 
is 
> NOT the case with JKR's non-canonical definitions of hexes, 
jinxes, 
> curses, etc.


Alla:

Sadly, I think you are right again Mike. I say sadly not because it 
saddens me when you are right, quite the contrary :)  

I say sadly because I used to take a lot of what JKR says as at 
least secondary canon in the interviews. I already changed my stance 
a bit as to interviews where I suspect she improvises, etc. But I 
was thinking that when she writes things on her website, she has a 
chance to think them over a bit more. Ooops.

Besides the example of what you brought up, here is another one, 
which IMO clearly contradicts what she wrote in DH.

"  Q. Voldemort is Harry's real father/grandfather/close relative of 
some description
   A. No, no, no, no, no. You lot have been watching much too much 
Star Wars. James is DEFINITELY Harry's father. Doesn't everybody 
Harry meets say 'you look just like your father'? And hasn't 
Dumbledore already told Harry that Voldemort is the last surviving 
descendent of Salazar Slytherin? Just to clarify - this means that 
Harry is NOT a descendent of Salazar Slytherin."

Alla:

I mean, if she would have stopped with defusing " Voldemort Harry's 
father/grandfather", I would have seen nothing contradictory", BUT 
we know that Voldemort and Harry are related now, no?

Oy.

So, I am not sure yet about whether I will completely disregard her 
hexes/jinxes having minor dark magic in it, but I definitely may.

I pretty much have the same dark magic definition as you do 
otherwise.

But even if I were to go with hexes and jinxes, I still see a major 
differences between using them and what supposedly Snape's pals did 
to Mary for example. Lily sounded too horrified instead of amused 
for me.


Mike:
<SNIP>
> Finally, we are suppose to "hate the Slytherins" because JKR set 
them 
> up as the "bad guy" house from book/day 1. YMMV, but I think that 
it 
> is just as simple as that. Any attempts to shoehorn this series 
into 
> a more complicated moralistic story will meet with frustration, 
imo. 
> And not accepting JKR's portrayal of Slytherins as the Bad Guys is 
a 
> denial of the way she wrote the story, imo again. If that is 
> unsatisfying personally, than that's for you (general) to come to 
> terms with personally.
> 
> Mike, who has no problem accepting the Slytherins as the bad guys 
but 
> takes into consideration Voldemort and his kin's influence on the 
> house going all the way back to the namesake founder. And 
therefore 
> figures that with that influence gone, the house has a chance for 
> moderating that bad guy image.
>


Alla:

Am leaving all of that unsnipped on purpose to say that I agree with 
every single word you wrote here. It is to me indeed as simple as 
that. IMO of course.


 zgirnius:
<SNIP>
> Indeed, it would appear that the Horcruxes, the (related) 
potion/magic 
> that recreated Voldemort's body, and Inferi are the only magic we 
could 
> say for sure is "the Dark Arts", because they never were endorsed 
or 
> used by any white hats. Harry used Crucio, he and Minerva used 
> Imperius, Harry used Sectumsempra (even after knowing its 
fuction), 
> Dumbledore endorsed the use of Avada Kedavra by Snape, and 
everyone and 
> their cousins uses jinxes, hexes, and curses.
> 
> Yet we have characters flagged for their supposed obsessions with 
the 
> Dark Arts (Harry despises Draco for his, just as we are told James 
> despised Severus for his). Neither Snape nor Draco at any point in 
> their careers are shown as having an interest in Horcruxes or 
creating 
> Inferi, however.

Alla:

Right, that is if you limit Dark Magic to Horcruxes or Inferi. If 
you expand Dark Magic to majorly hurting other people, then I say we 
get a different picture. Like, sure for example I think Harry used 
Sectusemptra as in using Dark magic, since Draco was hurt in a major 
way. I think Harry was justified doing it, but IMO it was a Dark 
magic. Only to twist Mike's words a little bit, I would call it Dark 
magic with intent to defend himself if that makes sense.

An aside about much debated bathroom scene. I still as I said think 
that Harry was on complete defensive here - he did not even use 
Sectusemptra right away, BUT with changed attitude towards 
unforgivables in book 7, the scene loses , I don't know 
some "passion" to me? I used to think that here Harry was defending 
himself from major evil ( one of three Unforgivables). Now I just 
think that he was defending himself from dangerous curse.


Zgirnius:
<SNIP> 
>> So in particular, James and Sirius were adept and frequent users 
of 
> Dark Magic as schoolboys. So is Harry, though his use is more 
judicious 
> in my view. Draco also knows and uses his Dark Arts. Severus was 
an 
> expert who created new spells of this type. His pal Mulciber was 
> another person who used them. 


Alla:

Or maybe Mike is right and JKR did not really mean to call hexes and 
jinxes having a touch of Dark magic? Because I still do not 
remember  James and Sirius using a curse that hurt anybody in a 
major way and I definitely believe Lily. I mean, was Snape hurt 
badly after Pensieve scene? I don't know. I am dying to 
read enciclopedia. I am guessing that she would finally put some 
definition in, although as I said for the most part it does make 
sense to me.

Like, for example Harry and Draco I say certainly used Dark magic, I 
mean, intent or not, Unforgivables still seem dark to me,maybe in a 
less monumental way?

James and Sirius, well, I really do not know about that. IMO of 
course.

Snape, um, most definitely IMO with his pal Mulciber. 


Zgirnius:
> All the good guys who go about looking down their noses at those 
greasy 
> Dark Arts obsessed oddballs? Hypocrites, up to a point. <BIG SNIP>


Alla:

Either that OR what they used were not dark magic, but instead JKR 
making things up on the fly. Or maybe what they used was less 
serious dark magic.

I mean, if JKR would meant to stress that hexes and jinxes are big, 
nasty dark magic, do you think she would have called them amusing?


CathyD:
<SNIP>
> Yes, Renee, I caught that too, but I just can't keep up with all 
of her mistakes in time to send one e-mail to the list.  It is 
absolutely nuts.  If I was that bad in math (and I probably am 
close) and was writing a book that depended upon mathematical 
formulas, birthdates, etc., I would have at least one person close 
to me who was very, very good at math, double and triple checking 
everything I wrote.  Instead, JKR comes up with lines like 
this: "There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can 
count, and those who can't." to excuse her lack of interest in 
keeping it all correct.


Alla:

Well, but does it depend on mathematical formulas, birthdates, etc? 
Books I mean? I mean, we all know JKR cannot count by now, but 
believe it or not, till I read another mathematical inconsistency 
here, I **never** notice it, and it never stops me from enjoying the 
story. I respect that it annoys people, but did JKR even **meant** 
to put story in the definite time frame, till fandom asked her about 
it and started calculating timelines?

She was originally asked about whether we can use Nick's death day 
as valid point for calcularion, right? Or something like that?

I am not sure I remember. As I said, I am just not sure that JKR 
places as much importance on the dates as we do. My reasoning is 
that I know I do not. :)

I do not care what age DD was and how it compares with Muriel's age, 
for example. Muriel for me was just that a minor nuisance who 
appeared and dissappeared right away. I did not think of her 
character much. Just saying.

I am really bad with numbers of course :)

> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Once again, just so we are clear, I wasn't attacking
> you or your opinion personally. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, Steve I know that :). If I thought you were attacking me, I 
would have asked you ;). And there is nothing wrong with attacking 
my **opinion** by the way :)


Steve:
<SNIP>

>> I'm not excusing Harry. I think he should have been
> honest and 'up front'. But, in my mind, Griphook's
> betrayal was far worse than Harry's.

Alla:

I guess we are at agree to disagree point then - sort of. Because 
while I 
agree that Goblin had clear intent to betray Harry to much worse 
fate than Harry intended to not giving him sword right away, I still 
think that two wrongs do not make right.

Alla