Dark Magic/ Ministry and Dementors/ Snape's role LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 176589

> Ceridwen:
> I can't quite believe Lily in The Prince's Tale about the 
difference 
> between the Prank and whatever it was Mulciber (not Snape) did to 
> Mary, because Lily didn't have all the facts about the Prank.  
James 
> saved Severus from "whatever's down there" - she didn't know it 
was 
a 
> werewolf, that James, Sirius and Peter all knew that, and that the 
> werewolf was Remus.  She did know what Mulciber did to Mary.  She 
> can't compare the two incidents adequately without all the info. 

<SNIP>

Alla:

Sorry, I completely disagree, I think she knew all 
the facts and **still** placed more importance on what Mulciber et 
all 
did to Mary.

I was absolutely convinced that Snape told her his theory.

"He's ill," said Lily. "They say he's ill__"
" Every month at the full moon?" said Snape.
"I know your theory," said Lily, and she sounded cold. "Why are you 
so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at 
night?" - p.674.

Eh, do we know any other illnesses at night during full moon at the 
potterverse? Personally I have no doubt that Snape sneaked it as 
his "theory" and told it to Lily. I mean, she **says** I know your 
theory. IMO of course.

Maybe because if she knew, she thought that if Snape went to face 
werewolf **knowing** that it was werewolf there, he has partially 
himself to blame and Mary did not do anything like that?


> Mgapie:
> Oh, I didn't read that chat. I have to say though, that it reminds 
me 
> of why people were so puzzled by Harry's Crucio. Why are we 
supposed 
> to know the Dementors are a sign of the underlying corruption of 
the 
> Ministry, exactly? It seems like just another one of those random 
> signs of ethical superiority of Dumbledore et al. that's not 
> explained. Obviously they're awful things, and yet I could easily 
> imagine a scene where, say, the twins locked somebody in a room 
with 
> Dementors (maybe in a cage so they can't actually suck his soul or 
> something) being played as satisfying revenge. Or Harry doing it 
to 
> somebody (he does say he'll let the Dementors have Peter).
><SNIP>

Alla:

I cannot help but ask ( not sarcastically at all). Are you seriously 
wondering why is it bad for Ministry to associate themself with 
Dementors? Are you saying that it was not explained enough why 
creatures who suck the happiness out of you are bad?

And I have to say, I cannot for the life of me imagine Twins locking 
up somebody with Dementors, their pranks and all that.

I believe, obviosly JMO that they will totally drew the line there.

I mean, I shudder when I think about them, as I do not do about 
Voldemort. It is a great example of knowing Dark magic when I see it.

I find them horrifying, absolutely horrifying personally.

> Carol responds:
> Without Snape, there would have been no eleven-year respite for the
> WW. Order members were being killed off one by one--the McKinnons, 
the
> Boneses, the Prewetts, Benjy Fenwick, etc. It was only a matter of
> time for Lupin, Black, and the Potters, and Pettigrew would have
> turned spy Prophecy or no Prophecy since he was afraid of LV and
> looking for protection from the biggest bully on the playground. 
> <SNIP>


Alla:

We do not know whether eleven year old respite would have been 
possible or not. Yes, Pettigrew would have been turned spy I agree, 
but he may not have a prophecy couple to betray too.


Carol:
> The only thing keeping Voldemort from taking over the Ministry, 
and,
> from there, the WW, had Snape not revealed the partial Prophecy 
would
> have been Dumbledore. There would have been no Chosen One without 
LV's
> acting to thwart the Prophecy.

Alla:

Yes, there would have been **just Harry** - exactly my point.


Carol:
 (And, had Snape not asked LV to spare
> Lily, there would *still* have been no Chosen One because all three
> Potters would have died at Godric's Hollow.) 
<SNIP>


Alla:

Yes, and......? I was saying that this is something Harry would not 
be grateful for? How is his mum's dead something that Harry should 
appreciate? How is it refutes my point?


Carol:
<SNIP>
> Essentially, if Dumbledore could have stopped Voldemort by 
himself, he
> would have done so. He couldn't. 

Alla:

We do not know that. He may have destroyed all Horcruxes himself for 
all I know.


Carol:
He needed Harry--not the normal Harry
> as he might have been in the unlikely event that both his parents 
had
> survived the endless Voldie War that began ca. 1970 and would have
> continued unabated throughout Harry's lifetime, but the
> soulbit-inhabited Harry who became Voldie's "equal" and 
acquired "the
> power that {LV] knows not" through his mother's self-sacrifice.
<SNIP>


Alla:

That to me makes Dumbledore look worse, NOT Snape look better. Not 
that I am sure that he need Harry in advance, I think he just used 
the situation, not that I applaud him much for it.

He wanted little boy turned into chosen one, because of Snape and 
Voldemort to be a killing machine, to be a saviour? Um, Booo 
Dumbledore. IMO of course.


Carol: 
>> He revealed the partial Prophecy, triggering the events at 
Godric's
> Hollow. He begged Voldemort to save Lily, making her survival 
possible
> and her death a self-sacrifice rather than a planned murder, which 
in
> turn gave Harry the blood protection (extended by DD to the 
Dursleys)
> and made Harry's survival possible.

Alla:

Um, yes. Just looks horrifying instead of heroic to me.

Carol:
 He informed DD that LV was
> targeting the Potters, indirectly resulting in the Fidelius Charm
> (broken by PP). 

Alla: 

Sure, Snape got remorseful that Lily will be killed. Ooops.

Carol:
He spied for DD at "great personal risk" before
> Godric's Hollow. 

Alla:

Sure he did, so?

Carol:
<SNIP of Snape's heroic deeds or not so heroic IMO. Go UPTHREAD to 
read them all>

Alla:

I think I will definitely nominate this Snape for Order of Merlin, 
LOL. 
But how can even I deny some of the things you named here after DH.  
I just do not buy some of them, mostly Harry related. AND do not 
find any of this to be relevant to my point.

 I of course do not see Snape **conjuring stretchers** as heroic 
deed and do not buy that Snape **taught** Harry expeliarmus. I think 
Harry learned it by himself - after seeing Snape cast it. It is not 
like I see that Snape had in mind teaching Harry that. IMO of course.

Occlumency helped Harry exactly how? Snape discovered that Harry was 
a Parselmouth? You make it sound as if Snape has to get a medal for 
that or as if this helped Harry too.

And he of course was saving Harry's life, to me saving son of Lily, 
but he was saving his life of course and did those other heroic 
things unrelated to Harry, of course 
he did.

My point was that **without Snape** Harry had a chance to have a 
normal life without Snape needing to save his life even, I do not 
see how anything that you wrote refutes it. 
Was it a guarantee? Surely not. But I stand by my opinion that 
without Snape James and Lily would not have been a prophecy couple 
and had a chance to survive first war, just as Moody, Lupin and 
other members of the order did.

And Harry would have had a loving mum and dad, maybe.


 
> Carol, who thinks that Harry's life without DDM!Snape would have 
been
> short and brutal
>

Alla:

Or long and happy.

 zgirnius:
> A minor point, but Harry is NOT a descendant of Slytherin. 
Voldemort, 
> through his relation to the Peverells, is a descendant of one of 
the 
> three brothers. Harry, through James, is a descendant of another. 
The 
> father of those three brothers, is a common ancestor of Voldemort 
and 
> Harry. Salazar may or may not be related to any of the brothers; 
> there is certainly no reason to suppose that he is an ancestor of 
all 
> three (and therefore of Harry).

Alla:

Well, yeah, I know. I was trying to say that her quote IMO can be 
read that Voldemort and Harry are not relatives at all, you know?

I was not trying to say that Harry is a descendant of Slytherin, I 
was trying to say though that they are definitely related in the 
books and quote can be IMO read as contradictory to that.




 
> > Alla:
> > Or maybe Mike is right and JKR did not really mean to call hexes 
> and 
> > jinxes having a touch of Dark magic? 
> 
> zgirnius:
> With all due respect to Mike, counterjinxes and countercurses are 
> both taught in DADA, and students practice defending against 
jinxes, 
> hexes, and curses in that class. Since that is the class for 
learning 
> to defend oneself from the Dark Arts, I conclude that the things 
they 
> practise defending themselves from, *are* Dark Arts. The website 
> merely confirms what is clearly shown in the books, in my view.

Alla:

Good point that, but do they practice defending themselves against 
all hexes and jinxes or only certain ones? Do you see what I am 
saying?

I am not positive myself as to whether disregard what she wrote 
about it, believe me I used to be one of the most fierce defenders 
aso to whether she says in interviews should be taken as canon, 
regardless of whether interviews support my POV or not. I mean, I 
used to support my POV with them, but you get what I am saying.

I am honestly not sure anymore.


 
> > Alla:
> > Snape, um, most definitely IMO with his pal Mulciber. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> Lily never suggests Severus did any such thing. An odd oversight, 
if 
> she believed he did.
<BIG SNIP>


Alla:

Sorry about that, I was not talking about Snape using Dark magic in 
that scene, meaning against Mary. I agree that Lily would have 
mentioned it. I was saying that Snape with Mulciber use dark magic 
in the series - sorry that it came up so awkward. I am not also 
saying that we know that Snape used dark magic in the same time or 
place with Mulciber, ever. Does it make sense?


zgirnius:
<SNIP>
There are degrees of everything, this is rather my point. Severus
inventing a spell to grow someone's toenails, Sirius using the
Impediment Jinx/Curse on an unarmed opponent, and Voldemort murdering
Lily, are all instances of different degrees of Dark Magic use. The
first two, I can see people finding funny. (Actually, I have a bit of
trouble seeing the humor personally, but after two years in fandom, I
am able to verify empirically that each of the first two instances is
considered funny by someone <g>).
<SNIP>


Alla:

My point was that JKR seemes to find jinxes amusing in that quote, 
not the characters, even though they obviosly do so too. You know?

If she indeed considers jinxes to be dark magic, I personally find 
it odd that she would call it amusing.

Zara:
As to your suggestion she did not think it through - it's all through
the books in the form of the DADA curriculum as shown in classes and
conversations about the classes. She did not, I presume, make the
books up on the fly?

Alla:

What is all through the books? Dark hexes and jinxes? It is 
mentioned now that you said it, I of course agree, that they 
practice counterjinxes and hexes and curses in DADA, but again ALL 
of them or just some of them?

And is it mentioned that often that they do that? Not sure I 
remember that many, but again cannot be sure.

I mean, we see one lesson with Snape when they do that. Moody taught 
them to fight Imperius, which is dark of course. We see dueling 
club, which I am not sure proves that they use dark curses, hexes or 
whatever, if they are dark. What else? Harry teaches them in DA, but 
again, does it prove that what he teaches against is dark? not sure.

Any other examples? Just asking.


Zara:
<SNIP>
As I see it, saying 'he/she is a Dark Wizard' in the Potterverse
means not 'he/she uses magic of a sort I would *never* use',
but 'he/she uses magic I would only use under special circumstances,
such as in self-defense, to advance his/her political and personal
agenda through terror'.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Makes sense to me, actually. But I am not sure I want to write I 
agree with it, since I am sure somebody will throw it back at me 
later on, LOL. So I will just say that I have to think about your 
definition.




JMO,

Alla.