Dark Magic

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176598

> > lizzyben:
> > Yeah, it's hypocrisy - hypocrisy that runs right through the 
novel,
> > and right through the series. Without a good definition of the
> > distinction, it becomes hypocritical for our heroes to hate 
someone
> > solely for using dark magic. And sometimes I get the feeling 
that we
> > never got a definition because the actual function of dark magic 
> isn't
> > important. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> I disagree. The definition is clear. All things called jinxes, 
hexes, 
> and curses are to differing degrees Dark, so are certain creatures 
we 
> see the students learnign abotu, as well as other things 
specifically 
> identified as Dark (Horcruxes, Inferimaking, etc.). I suppose we 
> can't really tell about the Marauders' Map, but since its makers 
were 
> an eventual Death Eater and three at least occasional users of the 
> Dark Arts, I don't see knowing this point as crucial to the 
> underpinnings of either the moral or magical underpinnings of the 
> Potetrverse.

lizzyben:

I'm going to totally agree with you. Your understanding seems like 
the most consistent view of Dark Magic, & it's consistent w/the DADA 
defenses that the students learn.

So, *both* sides use Dark Magic throughout the novels, to varying 
degrees. It's not something bad & evil, in and of itself, but a tool 
or weapon that both sides can use to advance their agenda.

zgirnius:
> It *is* hypocritical for our heroes to hate people for this 
reason. 
> Therefore, our heroes are hypocritical. They are also variously 
rash, 
> thoughtless, cruel, arrogant, manipulative, vindictive, and 
probably 
> otehr flaws that don't leap to mind at this moment. They are also 
> variously courageous, compassionate, kind, loving, self-
sacrificing, 
> and probably possess other virtues as well.
<snip>
What it important is not who is using 
> it, but *why* they are using it. The Death Eaters are using it to 
> overthrow the government and install a reign of terror against the 
> Muggleborns and Muggles, killing and torturing those they consider 
> beneath them indiscriminately. The Order are using it to try to 
stop 
> them and protect themselves and others. The kids in school, on 
both 
> sides, are using them as kids will, to practise them and learn 
them 
> and have fun doing it. 

lizzyben:

Yeah, and there's the real dividing line between good & bad - the 
political agenda, not the type of magic they use. Death Eaters have 
a terrorist, bigoted agenda & are killing innocent people to further 
that agenda. The Order/Harry are opposed to that - and that's why 
they're the good guys. 

zgirnius:
> To equate the petty cruelty of the Marauders with some atrocity of 
> the Death Eaters is just silly, IMO. I think the author expected 
us 
> to see there is a difference. Just as it is equally silly to 
equate 
> Severus' use of Sectumsempra (or whatever it was) against one of 
two 
> boys who had just attacked him to such an atrocity. The kids' 
stuff 
> is kids' stuff, and the adult stuff is where the moral message was 
> intended to lie, as I see it. The real 'Dark Wizards' of the 
series 
> are those carrying out such atrocities.

lizzyben:

Agree here as well. The one area I differ is that I believe we *are* 
supposed to see Dark Magic as more sinister or bad - kid's stuff or 
not.  In addition, Sirius says that he comes from a long line of 
Dark Wizards, & there's no indication that his ancestors were 
involved in committing atrocities. So while I'd agree that 
the "real" Dark Wizards are the Death Eaters, the text itself isn't 
so clear. Basically, Death Eaters are the ones involved in the stuff 
you've mentioned, so that's a good term for the designated bad guys 
here. But the text says that all "dark wizards" or "dark arts" are 
evil, and that seems to muddle the message a little. 

> zgirnius:
<snip>
> I did derive a great deal of satisfaction from the victory of 
> the 'good guys'. But this is because the book made quite clear 
that 
> they were in a battle of good vs. evil, and good won. YAY! Not 
> because the other side used wrong magic (A Muggle such as I could 
not 
> care less, really), but because the other side did things even a 
> Muggle such as myself could see clearly were evil, and intended to 
> keep on doing more and more of them if not stopped. 

lizzyben:

Still agreeing! The good guys won, and that's a happy ending. And 
the bad guys were bad because they were bigoted & evil & violent. 
But also, IMO the books say that they were bad because they 
used "wrong magic" - Dark Magic, and that connection is made 
throughout the series. And to the extent that magic is used by all 
sides, that's somewhat hypocritical or inconsistent.  


> zgirnius:
> I took this differently. I thought what needed to be justified in 
the 
> first place was James' hateful behavior, and Sirius grasped that. 
By 
> trying to tie it to the adult political/war picture, Sirius 
attempted 
> to excuse it. He was wrong to try, it was not excusable. James may 
> have been a good person, but that was despite what he did to 
Severus 
> in that scene, not because of it.

lizzyben:

Well, here in general Gryffindors seem to hate Slytherins because 
they use "Dark Magic". That's the reason that Sirius says that James 
tormented Snape (presumably why Sirius did so as well.) Harry 
despises Draco because he's into the Dark Arts (though there's 
really no indication that Draco is at all). And that's where it 
heads into quite a bit of projection. I do believe that we're 
supposed to see Slyths, Sirius' family, Durmstrang, etc. as more 
sinister & evil soley because of the connection to "Dark Magic." And 
to the extent that everyone uses dark magic, that's a bit odd. I 
don't think we're supposed to believe that Gryffindors or the Order 
are using Dark Magic, even though they are.

Sirius is telling Harry that it's right to hate people because they 
use "Dark Magic", though their own side uses the same magic. He 
implies that it was right for Sirius & James to use hexes to bully 
Snape as a principled stand against the Dark Arts, when it really 
wasn't that at all. That *hating* Slytherins or the Dark Arts proves 
how good & noble you are. Now, I don't know if that's the book's 
message, or just Sirius' message, you know? It's hard to tell 
sometimes. But there does seem to be a double standard in play - 
that it's OK when our House uses a certain spell, but evil Dark 
Magic when the other House uses the same spells. I like your 
characterization much better - it's all Dark Magic. What matters is 
how & why they use it.


lizzyben