Dark Magic (ignoring Dumbledore's age/ Goblin's view on property)

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 176600


Ceridwen:
He also knows what happened to him in the tunnel, what he saw, and
what James saved him from. He switches straight from Mary to the
Prank, because the two are associated in his mind. He can't tell
Lily about Remus, and James, Sirius, Peter and Remus probably
wouldn't (until she married James, sort of like a witch or wizard
keeping the magic out of a relationship until marriage to keep the
secret). Severus probably had his theory beforehand, but he can't
say that it's been confirmed. If Lily had known that a) Sirius sent
Severus down the tunnel knowing there was a werewolf at the other end
and b) there was a werewolf at the other end, would she have seen a
difference between whatever Mulciber did to Mary and what Sirius
tried to do to Severus?

Prep0strus:
Yes.  Sirius opened a door, and Severus ran through it.  That is
different from Sirius bringing Lupin to Severus's room and locking him
in with it.  What Sirius did is not admirable, but it is always very
different when you allow someone to put themselves in danger through
their own flaws  than it is to deliberately hurt someone else.

I think JKR is very clear on what she wants the reader to think about
Snape's friends and their Dark Arts.  I believe we are supposed to
read Lily's comments as truth, that what they did was truly horrible.
 That all these Young Death Eaters are practicing horrible things. 
And that what the Marauders do is NOT as bad.  I think JKR did a
piss-poor job of defining the dark arts, especially when it comes to
this final book.  Interviews calling hexes dark arts, good guys doing
`unforgiveables' (and with ease and lack of practice, almost a worse
crime on her part), blurring so many lines it's now pretty much a
matter of personal opinion.  But I don't think her intent here is
murky, despite how much she mucked it up through the rest of the book
and her interviews.  The dark arts are clearly supposed to be
terrible.  The interest in them is supposed to be associated with
death eaters and slytherins sympathetic to them.

It's so fashionable to identify with evil characters and smooth over
their flaws, and to look for the lack of perfection in good characters
and overemphasize their flaws, until everyone is floating around on
the same moral ground. Except that they're not.  We can point to many
many problems JKR had with the way she tried to get things across,
with her contradictions and issues, but what she intended  is pretty
obvious.  I don't mind it when people castigate her for creating an
`other' and for making Slytherins, etc., her `whipping boys', but it
goes too far when we blame the other CHARACTERS for this.  We have to
judge the characters on what they do.  Only the author is responsible
for the entire universe.  And I don't think you can blame Griffindors
for looking down their nose at Slytherins, because in the world, as
created, the Slytherins are bad.  Dark arts is bad – some have said
dark=slytherin, and that may be, and it may be a flaw of JKR's, but
it's not the fault of Griffindors.  Griffindors didn't create this
`other'. 


zgirnius:
So when Sirius thought Severus was 'into the Dark Arts', he was not
actually saying that Severus knew or did things that are materially
different from things Sirius knew and did (except that his knowledge
may have been prodigious for an eleven-year-old). Sirius was making
assumptions that this knowledge and interest would lead Severus to make
different choices than Sirius's regarding the Voldemort war. At age
eleven, these assumptions were based more on prejudice due to
looks/House preference/other factors than any knowledge he had of
Snape's personality and interests. (Nil, early on).

Prep0strus:

Except that
 he's right.  That's what makes all the difference.  We
can argue how well JKR set all of this up, but the point is, Sirius is
RIGHT.  Severus's interest and knowledge DID lead him to make
different choices.  Your assertion that Sirius and Severus didn't know
or do things that are materially different is your opinion.  I don't
think we've been shown enough to be sure, and I think JKR would
disagree.  I think she wants us to believe they ARE different – she
just didn't do a good job showing us how.  But the thing that isn't
debatable is that Sirius didn't become a Death Eater, and Severus did.
 A lot of times there can be debate over means and ends and intents
and causes, but sometimes you look at the big picture and see that
however much one might want to see into the soul of the dark
characters and see light and look into the good characters and see
their evil, there comes a point where it's immaterial.  Mulciber's a
villain.  Peter's a traitor.  Lily dies protecting her son and Neville
is a good guy.  It's easy to pick apart the way JKR tells us things –
she's made it too easy, in fact.  But I think we're supposed to trust
Lily most of the time, and so I try to do that.  Assumptions about
what isn't told to us is just that, and I'm often confused as to why
one would make assumptions that go against the intent – just because
there are holes, doesn't mean we should fill them in such a way as to
turn the world upside down.

I think maybe I'm complaining a little excessively.  It's fun to twist
the world around, and I certainly do my fair share of reading between
the lines.  But JKR meant something when she invented dark magic.  She
failed miserably in defining it accurately, but I for one will still
accept that somehow, in some way I don't understand, there is a
difference that is more than mere political spin.


Carol, wishing that Tom Riddle had never come near the school to
contaminate Slytherin House and ruin the lives of so many people

Prep0strus:

It's been said before, but Tom Riddle cannot contaminate the house
whose founder placed a giant basilisk in the basement to kill
muggleborns.  He is the most egregious and offensive example of the
contamination that already existed.

Its place is in a different post, but I have to agree with JKR when
she is dumfounded by people who identify with Slytherin.  I can easily
understand identifying with NONE of the houses, but
 there was a post
that I still have not gotten to respond to in which it was asked what
could have redeemed, or made equal, Slytherin in our eyes.  Well,
among other things
 a sorting hat song that didn't make them out to be
so bad.  That gave them something resembling a worthwhile trait,
something one might actually want to have as a part of themselves.  It
must have been done many times before this book, but I think looking
at what the hat actually says is a reality check for what Slytherin
truly is.  And sure, the hat could be lying (it WAS griffindor's!),
but when everything good about something has to be made up by the
reader, it's just trying too hard.  What I would've liked is a song
that showed how maybe slytherin house wasn't the breeding ground for
the scum of the earth.

Adam (Prep0strus), who's sure he's gotten himself into hot water
again, but after again reading the Sorting Hat songs in full is just
more disgusted with Slytherin, and more disappointed in JKR