Dark Magic/ Ministry and Dementors/ Snape's role LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 176604

> > Alla:
> > 
> > We do not know whether eleven year old respite would have been 
> > possible or not. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> An eleven-year respite without the events at Godric's Hollow 
(Lily's
> self-sacrifice, the deflected AK, etc.)? What could possibly have
> brought that about? <SNIP>


Alla:

I do not know. Other unique event, maybe? Other mother sacrificing 
her life for other child? maybe something totally different. My 
point is I cannot exclude it from the varieties.



Carol:
<SNIP>
And the Potters would have been targeted by the DEs
> just as the other Order members were. Their likelihood of survival 
in
> a WW run by Voldemort would be small and Harry's chances for 
happiness
> equally small.
<SNIP>


Alla:

And nevetheless they defied Vodlemort three times, didn't they? I 
think they would have happily took that chance if offered instead of 
being prophecy couple. IMO of course. Many Order members survived 
the first war, I do not see what would have stopped Potters from 
being one of them. Not a guarantee sure, but a chance? Definitely in 
my view.

Carol:

(He would not have grown up like Ron in a relatively
> normal WW. Nor would Ron have grown up that way. Voldie would have
> been in charge. The only person who was stopping him from 
completely
> taking over the WW was Dumbledore, who couldn't or wouldn't kill 
him
> because he knew about the Horcruxes.

Alla:

How do you know all that? Other order members were also fighting. 
Maybe Dumbledore would have shared the Horcruxes existance with 
somebody else and that somebody else would have figured out how to 
go on destroying them.



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, there would have been **just Harry** - exactly my point. 
<snip>
> 
> Carol:
> "Just Harry"--a normal wizard boy with no more powers than Ron or
> Neville in a world ruled by Voldemort? Even if he survived, what
> chance would he or any normal wizard or witch have had of 
happiness?
> His parents were in hiding even before the Fidelius Charm and in
> danger of being killed as Order members before that.  <SNIP>

Alla:

Huh? As much of the chance as any child during the war as far as I 
am concerned and IMO **much** bigger one than the child of targeted 
parents who went in hiding because of Snape.


> > Alla:
> > 
> > We do not know that. He may have destroyed all Horcruxes himself 
for
> all I know. <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> On the contrary, we know what happened when he tried--a dead hand 
(he
> would have died if not for Snape) and no one to save him when he'd
> drunk the potion in the cave. Canon makes it clear that DD could 
*not*
> have destroyed the Horcruxes all by himself, or lived to battle
> Voldemort had he made the attempt.

Alla:

No, we do not know that IMO. We know that Dumbledore got hurt NOT 
because he could not destroy Horcrux, but because he got overcome by 
desire to see his dead loved ones - in other words IMO it has 
nothing to do with Horcruxes and everything with Dumbledore's state 
of mind. Would he had done same thing? Maybe, maybe not IMO.



> > Alla:
> > 
> > Um, yes. Just looks horrifying instead of heroic to me. <snip>
> 
> Carol:
> I'm not calling it heroic. I'm showing that Harry would not be 
alive
> (or the Chosen One) if not for Snape. IOW, I'm showing Snape's
> importance to the plot, not his heroism in this instance.

Alla:

And I am not arguing that Snape is not important to the plot. Of 
course he is. I am just strongly disagreeing that Snape had initial 
**positive** influence on Harry's life. But for him revealing the 
prophecy Harry would not have been a Chosen one, sure, but neither 
would he had been directly targeted by Voldemort in my view.


  
> Carol:
> And my point is that, regardless of Snape's motives, without Snape,
> Harry would not be alive at all. And that includes teaching the
> Duelling Club the Disarming Charm. No other teacher taught Harry 
that
> all-important life-saving spell.  <  BIG  SNIP>

Alla:

I guess we arrived at agree to disagree point then. I believe that 
Harry's chances of better life had been much stronger had Snape kept 
his mouth shut and did not let Voldemort have that prophecy.

Snape as catalyst of the story? Well, sure he was, he started all 
that crap for Harry IMO. But somebody who made Harry Potter of Harry 
Potter as positive thing which what I was originally responding to?

No way, not IMO. 
I am sure WW in a round about way has reasons to be grateful to 
Snape - after all, indeed in the round about way because of Snape 
giving that prophecy they got their savior.

But Harry to be grateful? I am not saying you are saying it, just go 
on a tangent by the way. I would say **no way**, **no how** and the 
fact that Harry is admiring Snape at the end, just makes me like him 
even more, but certainly NOT do the same.

Respect Snape for saving Harry life? Sure, but be grateful for 
something he started and tried to rectify? As I said not IMO.

He did what somebody who decided to leave evil master was supposed 
to do if he was truly intent on rectifying his sins IMO.

Alla.