Dark Magic / Light Canon

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 176618

> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/176584
> 
> zgirnius:
> There are degrees of everything, this is rather my point. Severus
> inventing a spell to grow someone's toenails, Sirius using the
> Impediment Jinx/Curse on an unarmed opponent, and Voldemort 
> murdering Lily, are all instances of different degrees of Dark 
> Magic use. The first two, I can see people finding funny. 
> (Actually, I have a bit of trouble seeing the humor personally, but
> after two years in fandom, I am able to verify empirically that 
> each of the first two instances is considered funny by someone <g>).

Mike:
As I said, I've stopped reading JKR's interview/website as canon. 
But if what you said here is what she said, then I'm cool with it. 
Because your explanation (including the follow-on that I haven't 
quoted) makes more sense than any other I've seen. I want your 
analytical mind!! 

So every spell that falls under the category of attacking another 
being has some degree of "Dark Magic". The problem for us is that the 
characters refer to Dark Magic as that with the most sinister intent. 
Which leaves us guessing where they draw that line. I'm siding with 
Alla's interpretation, "I know it when I see it." 

For me, that means that the Marauders are not being hypocritical, 
because in their world "Dark Magic" is defined as something different 
than the minor dark magic that you have defined above. Also, a "Dark 
Arts Practitioner" is defined as one who uses "Dark Magic", the 
Capital Letter variety. As I said, we may not know where they drew 
the line, but it doesn't seem to be a problem for them. And us not 
knowing what has been clearly defined to them does not make them 
hypocrites, imo.

> zgirnius:
> I suppose we can't really tell about the Marauders' Map, but since 
its makers were an eventual Death Eater and three at least occasional 
users of the Dark Arts, I don't see knowing this point as crucial to 
the underpinnings of either the moral or magical underpinnings of the
Potetrverse.

Mike:
I feel pretty confident in saying that the Marauder's Map is a 
*Charmed* piece of parchment. And, as I said above, I don't agree 
that the Marauders were using "Dark Arts" as they were defined in 
their world. As Steve pointed out, both Murder and jaywalking are 
illegal. But most people wouldn't say a jaywalker had committed a 
*crime*. In fact, most people caught speeding don't consider 
themselves as committing a crime.


> zgirnius:
> To equate the petty cruelty of the Marauders with some atrocity of
the Death Eaters is just silly, IMO.

Mike: YES, thank you!


>> Alla:
>> Or maybe Mike is right and JKR did not really mean to call hexes
>> and jinxes having a touch of Dark magic?

> zgirnius:
> With all due respect to Mike, counterjinxes and countercurses are
both taught in DADA, and students practice defending against jinxes,
hexes, and curses in that class. Since that is the class for learning
to defend oneself from the Dark Arts, I conclude that the things they
practise defending themselves from, *are* Dark Arts.

Mike:
First, let's not start giving Mike due respect. <snort> But what I 
was trying to say was that JKR's *canon* defined "Dark" as something 
different than hexes and jinxes. And though I agree with your 
interpretation as far as DADA and the degrees of dark, that differs 
from what I read as the characters defining as "Dark". I'm not sure 
if that makes sense, but I don't know how to say it better.


> > Mike:
> > And not accepting JKR's portrayal of Slytherins as the Bad Guys
> > is a denial of the way she wrote the story, imo again. If that is
> > unsatisfying personally, than that's for you (general) to come to
> > terms with personally.

> zgirnius:
> It is neither the house from which all bad guys came, nor a house
consisting entirely of bad guys. I'm afraid I don't even know what
you are saying, here. What you say later, about it being the house 
of Riddle and most of his followers, seems too obvious to debate.
Perhaps that is all you mean here?

Mike:
The context here was a response as to *if* we should hate the 
Slytherins because of their use of Dark Magic. It is my opinion that 
JKR wrote Slytherin as the prototypical den of the bad guys. And 
*that* is why we are *supposed* to hate them.

BTW, I share your position on the house. But that is my opinion and 
not necessarily how JKR wrote the house. 


In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/176605

Ceridwen:
Lily didn't know all the facts. She didn't know what was at the end
of the tunnel: "They don't use Dark Magic, though." She dropped her
voice. "And you're being really ungrateful. I heard what happened
the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping
Willow, and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there --"
(US DH 674) The phrase "whatever's down there" means she doesn't
know what's down there. One fact lacking.

Mike:
I can't speak for Alla, but as she has interpreted for me a few 
times, I think I'll return the favor. LOLOL. I think her point was 
that Lily didn't make the connection between Sev's theory on Lupin 
and "whatever's down there" being that same werewolf. And it doesn't 
matter, Sev isn't accusing the Marauders of practicing "Dark Magic". 
He's just accusing them of getting up to some shenanigans.

Once Lily called James a toerag, Sev didn't care anymore about any 
Dark Magic accusations. IMO, that was because he wasn't trying to 
convince Lily that Potter and Co. were practicing Dark Arts, he just 
wanted her to not like him, plain and simple. 


In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/176607

> Julie:
> This is a continuing issue in the HP books from the reader's POV. 
> Every time you try to nail down a definition--like saying Dark 
> Magic is that which  leaves lasting physical effects--
> something will come up that doesn't fit the definition.
> 
> For instance, by your definition above Hermione practiced Dark 
> Magic when she jinxed/hexed the DA parchement. <snip>

Mike:
Just to clarify, I was saying that non Dark Magic meant that it 
*didn't* leave lasting physical effects. That is different from 
saying Dark Magic *must* leave lasting physical effects. Or that 
anything that leaves lasting physical effects *must* be Dark.

As zgirnius has said, there is some dark magic in all these kinds of 
hexes/jinxes. So I would agree that Hermione used *some* dark magic 
when she jinxed the DA parchment. Just not Dark Magic.


> Julie:
> But is a memory charm ever considered "Dark" magic? A wizard can  
> use virtually *any* spell for sinister purposes, to injure or even 
> kill another wizard, but we never hear that you can use basic 
> spells in a way that makes them "Dark" instead of "Light" 
> (or simply not-Dark). It's all just very inconclusive!

Mike:
Yep, you're right. I guess I was calling it Dark Magic when I should 
have said it was magic being used for Dark intents or being abused by 
a Dark Wizard. Good call, Julie.


> Julie:
> (And one could say JKR wrote it that way so each of her readers 
> could create their own mindsets about what constitutes "Dark" magic 
> and other ambiguously defined concepts within the HP universe, much
> as she left the character Snape deliberately ambiguous until DH.

Mike:
I think it was deliberate because I think she didn't want to either 
define "Dark" nor box herself in as to what she would consider "Dark" 
for her characters. But, as you say, that's not good writing. That 
just showed a lack of ability to explain her world's technical 
aspects. She wasn't interested in making the story about magic, she 
just wanted to use wizards to tell a story.


> Julie:
> It was unclear until DH was published whether there *was* a
> deeper and more complicated moralistic story going on beneath the
> surface. Many, many readers assumed there was such an underlying
> story, which would be revealed in DH, and would in turn reveal JKR 
> as the extremely talented author (in terms of nuance and 
> complexity of writing) that many of us hoped or assumed she was. 
> Alas, it did not come to pass. She is a talented author in terms of 
> inventiveness and storytelling, just not quite the er, wizard at 
> tying up details into the truly cohesive universe that some of us 
> expected.

Mike:
I agree with both of your assessments on the story and the author. I 
guess what confused me about the disappointment in moralistic terms 
was that JKR said many times that she was not trying to write a moral 
tale, a la C S Lewis. She even went so far as to say she was offended 
in the way Lewis treated his Susan Pevensy character. (an assessment 
I agree with) So when it turned out that JKR *didn't* write a tale 
with that overarching moralistic thread, I thought that she had just 
kept her word. 

Its a shame that her ability to flesh out 3D characters did not 
coincide with an ability to give them a more meaningful story arc.  
Yet, the 3D characters are what made discussing the books so 
enjoyable.


> Julie: 
> I believe it is a very valid criticism to say the books would have  
> been better in quality if many of the ambiguous concepts like Dark 
> Magic had been defined in a meaningful and coherent way, and if the 
> hanging plot threads that ended up abandoned (like House Elf 
> rights) had been given some actual resolution (or had never been 
> started in the first place).

Mike:
Well said!


> Julie: 
> The only thing left, as you say and I do agree, is to enjoy the  
> stories on their *actual* terms, as inventive and entertaining, but 
> not as  clever moral allegories, or tightly woven stories in terms 
> of cohesive  plotting. Which I am willing to do, though I still 
> feel free to insert my .02 cents into discussion like this one!

Mike:
I like pointing out plot holes and failed story arcs as much as the 
next guy. I suppose where we differ, to some degre, is that I felt 
invested in Harry more than any other character. Not that he was my 
favorite character, just that I was more interested in what happened 
to him and all the other story lines were interesting but unimportant 
in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately, I only required a 
satisfying conclusion to Harry's story from JKR, and for the most 
part I got that.

Mike, pointing out to Julie that she should drop the decimal point 
from .02 cents, as 2/100ths of a cent is not much input. LOL