Dark Magic / Choices for eleven year olds/ Lily knew about werewolf or not

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 176631

Prep0strus:
> Except that
 he's right. That's what makes all the difference. We
> can argue how well JKR set all of this up, but the point is, Sirius
is
> RIGHT. Severus's interest and knowledge DID lead him to make
> different choices.

zgirnius:
Even a clock that is broken shows the right time twice a day. I do
not believe I am supposed to believe that young Severus the eleven-
year-old on the train, was already irrevocably committed to a career
of terror and evil as a Death Eater. Sirius Black indicates he formed
this opinion when Sev was 11. I don't believe him, and even if I did,
he would have been wrong from what he knew.
	<SNIP>
	
Alla:

But wait Zara, I thought all that prep0strus was saying is that 
Sirius' judgment was **correct**, turned out to be correct? You do 
not believe his judgment when he talks about eleven year old Snape, 
I get it, but there is no dispute that Snape's choices turned out to 
be different, so I guess what it turns out to be for me is that 
indeed Sirius turning out to be right makes all the difference.

Who says anything about excusing Sirius behavior in pensieve scene? 
But do I believe that based on their eleven year olds self we are 
supposed to see that Sirius and Severus already making different 
choices? Oh yes, I absolutely do. Did Sirius know that Severus will 
become DE? I doubt it of course. BUT I think we can safely see it as 
a hint of Snape's future that "knew more curses" thing. Again, IMO.


prep0strus:
> But the thing that isn't
> debatable is that Sirius didn't become a Death Eater, and Severus
did.

zgirnius:
You will note, please, that I was not debating that. 21 year old
Severus Snape was a Dark Wizard. 21 year old Sirius Black was a
member of the Order of the Phoenix. This does not retroactively
excuse Sirius's behavior as a fifth year, or, if he made it, his
prejudiced judgment of Severus as a first year.


Alla:

Right, see above and I was also thinking that they made their 
choices earlier than twenty one. Minor point, but still, while I 
obviously cannot prove that Snape was already DE at school, it is 
pretty much canon, that at least at nineteen they already made their 
choices, isn't it?  Snape went his merry ways with the gang of DE 
and Potters and Sirius went to fight for Order of Phoenix. I mean 
when Harry was born, Potters were less then twenty years of age and 
Snape passed the prophecy before that. I think they made their 
choices **really** early.

Sirius talks about Snape at eleven. No, I do not think that it is 
that strange that he already shows the behavior which would lead him 
at nineteen to be a DE.  
I guess I am saying what I had been saying all along about Slytherin 
house all this time. What good guys feel about them in the books is 
not prejudice, it is them taking a stand against bad guys.

That is why I also do not think that Sirius' not liking Severus at 
eleven is prejudice. I would not  call it taking a stand of course, 
since Severus did not do anything to them yet, but I am totally 
taking it as a hint from Rowling. IMO of course.


> houyhnhnm:
> 
> It was pointed out long ago that the Map addressed Snape 
> by his title and the Marauders had no way of knowing that 
> Snape would become a Hogwarts professor.
><SNIP>

Alla:

But did Dumbledore's portrait know all that things that were about 
to happen when he discussed them with Snape or with Harry at the end?

> Renee:
> Maybe Fred and George didn't mind being insulted a couple of times 
and
> just went on experimenting until they found the key. Being able to
> laugh at yourself would be a good test for anyone wanting to claim
> control of the Marauder's Map. Somehow, I can't see Snape doing so 
at all.
>

Alla:

Snape laughing at himself? Boggart scene anyone? I think it is a 
safe assumption to make that Snape never laughed at himself, ever.

Julie:
<SNIP>
But the ones we have been discussing *at Hogwarts* are CHILDREN.
Yes they have racist attitudes, but no they do NOT kill and 
terrorize the
WW. At least NOT YET. This concept of eleven year old children who 
are
already so morally bankrupt they have "almost no hope for salvation" 
is
absolutely horrifying to me. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sure in the RW it is, although as I wrote in the past, I do think 
that there are plenty of horrible eleven year olds as well, but sure 
I would not say that the bad attitudes cannot change at eleven as a 
rule.

But I was about to comment on something a bit different in that 
topic, which I am not sure why I did not realize earlier. Or maybe I 
did, but totally do not remember.

We keep talking about how horrible it is to show that the eleven 
year olds are horrible, etc, but are we sure that this is what JKR 
meant to show? Ugh, bear with me please. There is a great Russian 
fantasy/ sf writer Sergey Lukianenko ( he wrote Night watch book, 
and the movie was shown in some US theaters too). His early stories 
were pretty much all about kids. I thought psychologically they were 
fascinating, absolutely fascinating. I mean, he has psychiatrist 
background, so he knows his stuff. Anyways, you would be amazed at 
the horrible things some kids do in his stories. They often take 
place during some sort of galactic wars or other extreme situations –
 betrayal, murder, etc, etc. And guess what, they often do die for 
that or have other bad things happened to them

So, I sincerely doubt that Lukianenko meant to show that those kids 
have no salvation, you know? I think he writes stories where kids 
are sort of meant to be looked as adults, you know?

Does that make sense? While his stories do not have much in common 
with Rowling in the sense of magical set up, I think at least today 
that his world is also mainly the world of kids, where kids carrying 
out adult tasks and often take on adult responsibilities and maybe 
supposed to be blamed as adults too?

It is hard to say, I am not sure I am married to this idea, but 
wouldn't you say that if in Rowling's world sixteen seventeen year 
olds are saving the world, accordingly people of the same age or 
earlier should carry out full responsibility for their racist 
attitudes?

Like in one of Lukianenko stories which I read long time ago, the 
kid of I think ( not sure I remember) thirteen betrayed their 
comrades in war and he was sort of forced into it and  he is still 
in prison and they were prepared to execute him, I am pretty sure, 
although not hundred percent positive.

I do not think I read out of that story that thirteen year olds who 
do horrible things are irredeemable, just that in that world they 
sort of get no slack for that.

I mean of course my whole speech only applies if one thinks that 
Slytherin house bears full blame for their ideology, but for them 
being children.

On the other hand of course I know the objection coming – then what 
should we do with Marauders and Snape – blame them full stop too? I 
do not know.


Mike:
<BIG SNIP>
I can't speak for Alla, but as she has interpreted for me a few
times, I think I'll return the favor. LOLOL. I think her point was
that Lily didn't make the connection between Sev's theory on Lupin
and "whatever's down there" being that same werewolf. And it doesn't
matter, Sev isn't accusing the Marauders of practicing "Dark Magic".
He's just accusing them of getting up to some shenanigans.

Once Lily called James a toerag, Sev didn't care anymore about any
Dark Magic accusations. IMO, that was because he wasn't trying to
convince Lily that Potter and Co. were practicing Dark Arts, he just
wanted her to not like him, plain and simple.
<BIG SNIP>


Alla:

See Mike, I love your posts so much that it gets not one but two 
separate responses from me ;)

I had have to think about this point to make sure that I am 
absolutely clear on what I meant, since I was so delightfully erm
 
vague on this one yesterday.

Here is what I meant, I hope clear enough.

1.	I am convinced that Snape had a "theory" before he went to 
the Shack and that theory was that Remus Lupin is a werewolf.
2.	I am convinced that he informed Lily about that "theory" 
before Prank occurred.
3.	I **was** thinking that Lily did make that connection 
because she knew the theory. Somebody explained to me that whatever 
means that she did not know what is down there, as opposed to 
*what** is down there. So, I still cannot **completely** exclude the 
possibility that she knew, or at least deduced that, but I accept 
that it is likely that she did not do that. I just, you know, cannot 
accept that if somebody told me that hey, I think Lupin is a 
werewolf that is why he is there in the Shack AND then  Prank occurs 
and Lily can completely block out whatever Snape told her before, 
meaning to block out the theory.
4.	Having said all that, I definitely agree with you that it 
**does not matter**, I am not sure how it morphed into accusations 
of Dark magic against Marauders, how it became a comparison between 
what Mulciber did and prank.