Dark Magic WAS: Re:help with JKR quote/ Children's reactions

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 176769

> Carol responds:
> 
> We need to look at canon (not that it's consistent, but it's the place
> to start). When and by whom and in what context are the terms "Dark
> arts," "Dark wizard," and "Dark magic" used? (I agree that there's no
> canonical distinction between "dark" and "Dark"; only JKR's
> off-the-cuff attempt to distinguish between jinxes, hexes, and curses,
> which doesn't fit canon at all since it puts, say, the Conjunctivitis
> Curse or the Leg-Locker Curse, aka Locomotor Mortis).

lizzyben:

OK, canon. I agree that there is absolutely no distinction between
dark magic, Dark Magic, or DARK MAGIC in canon. It also seems like
there isn't a middle ground of semi-dark, gray magic. There's just two
categories: "dark magic" & DADA. 

Carol:
> Where to start? How about Knockturn Alley or curses and spells used
> *only* by known Dark wizards and particularly Voldemort. Horcruxes and
> the unnatural resurrection magic performed by Wormtail and possession,
> used only by Voldemort to control his victims and in Quirrell's case,
> use up his life force, is surely also Dark magic.

lizzyben:

I agree that Horcruxes & Inferi are undoubtably dark - the problem is,
we never see anyone except Voldemort using this type of magic. What
does your typical "Dark Wizard" (Blacks, Malfoys) do?

Carol:
> Or how about what's taught in the DADA classes (other than
> Umbridge's)? The focus in the first through third years, especially in
> Lupin's class, seems to be on Dark creatures (as distinct from
> "magical creatures" like Unicorns and Knarls and Hippogriffs). Dark
> creatures are easy enough to identify and always labeled as such, and
> we can definitely see a range of "darkness" or at least of danger in
> them, from the mischievous Cornish Pixies released by Lockhart to
> Dementors, the foulest of Dark creatures, soulless and evil despite a
> humanlike appearance when they're cloaked. (I suppose we could include
> Blast-Ended Skrewts as Dark, but since they were bred by Hagrid and
> are otherwise nonexistent, we can safely leave them off the list.)
> Werewolves are Dark creatures once a month; Dementors and Inferi are
> always Dark--irredeemabe and unreformable and permanently perilous.
> (Vampires, oddly, seem to be essentially harmless and comic. Strangely.)

lizzyben:

Yes, there are Dark Creatures, but most of these seem to be entirely
natural - that is, they are magical creatures that exist independent
of wizards. "Dark Magic" doesn't create more vampires, or werewolves,
etc., the monsters themselves do. Dementors also seem independent.
Only Inferi seem to be directly created & controlled by a wizard. So
these monsters seem to be labeled "dark creatures" because they are
bad or evil, not because there's any connection to "dark magic" as such. 

Carol:
> The Dark Arts, covered by Fake!Moody in GoF and Snape in HBP, are
> another matter. Fake!Moody focuses on curses, even using the Imperius
> Curse on students. (I think it was an excuse to force them to do his
> bidding, but, oh, well.) He also hexes them as a "test" to see whether
> they can protect themselves (so he says). We're not told that he
> actually teaches them any defensive spells; if he did, Hermione
> wouldn't have had to look up Protego and Impedimenta (another
> "curse"!) in the library. 


lizzyben:

The DADA classes are, IMO, our best clue to what dark magic actually
is. To learn a "defense against dark arts" spell, the spell has to be
defending against dark magic. And in these classes, unforgiveable
curses, hexes & jinxes are all seen as dark magic. In the Dueling Club
of COS, Lockhart is supposed to be showing the students a "DADA"
defense spell, while Snape attacks w/a presumed Dark spell. What spell
does Snape attack with? Expelliarmus, which later becomes Harry's
signature spell. I think, in this series, Dark Magic is simply a form
of combat magic. It's a weapon that can be used by all sides. As
another poster has said, it is a term for violent spells in general.
Now, there's still differences in how deadly each jinx or curse is,
w/the most deadly curses are banned completely. But those are just
differences of degree - like the difference between a BB gun
(Jelly-Legs Jinx) & a bazooka (AK). "Dark Magic" is simply offensive
battle spells - all jinxes, curses, etc. This is also consistent
w/what JKR herself says on her website. 

Carol:
> Anyway, I'm working from memory here, but I'm suggesting places to
> look. DADA is "Defense Against the Dark Arts," so what, exactly, are
> the students being taught to defend themselves against? What is sold
> in Knockturn Alley that isn't sold in Diagon Alley? What magic is
> performed by known Dark wizards that isn't performed by, erm, non-Dark
> ones?

lizzyben:

Knockturn Alley seems to have various "dark items", though this isn't
defined most of the time. It's probably the same kind of stuff they
found in the Black House. What I can't understand is what a "Dark
Wizard" actually *does* all day. For example, Orion Black, Sirius'
father is a "dark wizard". So... what? Does he go around all day using
jinxes & curses against people? I don't think so. What makes a dark
wizard dark? I don't think we ever get a real explanation.

Carol:
> Is the Unbreakable Vow, which involves the death of the oath breaker,
> Dark? (I'd say it is.) What about curses that have no countercurse or
> poisons with no antidote? Are poisons in general, at least, magical
> poisons, Dark magic? (That horrible potion protecting the locket
> Horcrux (and the fake one) surely is. If, say, Dumbledore had created
> that potion, surely it would still be Dark magic. It isn't Dark simply
> because Voldemort created it.

lizzyben:

I'm liking a general definition that dark magic is magic that involves
causing violence or pain to others. So, poisons would be dark magic.
And the twins' ton-tongue toffees might be as well.

Carol: 
> The Unforgiveable Curses cause excruciating pain or instant death
> (with no countercurse) or an invasion of the mind and robbing of the
> will which for lack of a better term we can call mind rape.
> Apparently, good wizards can use them without becoming Dark
> themselves, but nevertheless, these curses do seem to be Dark magic.
> But, apparently, some magic is *so* Dark (Horcruxes, the creation of
> Inferi, possession) that only a Dark wizard would use it.

lizzyben:

It seems like the real division is between everyone else & Voldemort.
Everyone else can (& does) use jinxes, dark items, even unforgiveable
curses w/o being called a "dark wizard." The super-dark magic of
Inferi & Horcruxes are something only Voldemort could or would do. 

Carol:
> Are we any closer to a definition or to something resembling
> consistency in JKR's use of the term? Can we please look at canon?
> 
> Carol, thinking that perhaps JKR's ideas changed as she wrote and
> spells that she originally labeled "curses" became "jinxes" (as for
> "counterjinxes," what the heck are they?)

lizzyben:

It seems like you've done an exhaustive canon comparison in your
previous posts w/o really coming up w/a totally consistent
characterization. (message 160791). Many of the "curses" are much less
dangerous than jinxes, though jinxes are supposed to be less serious.
  Curses are supposed to be "reserved for the darkest magic", yet some
curses seem relatively minor. So IMO it really seems like we might
just have to accept that JKR hasn't been coherent in how she's
presented this form of magic. What IS consistent, IMO, is that jinxes,
hexes, & curses have always been presented as dark magic (both on her
website & in canon). Which fits in nicely w/a general scheme of "dark
magic" as violent, offensive or combative spells. And this means that
the good guys use dark magic often throughout the series. 


lizzyben