Dark Magic (+ a little Marietta)/Karma and the Twins

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 176857

> > Magpie:
> 
> > 
> > It is stacking the deck for the reader, imo, because of how it 
> > works. "The world" most certainly is conspiring against Draco 
just 
> > as it often conspires against and then for Harry--Buckbeak has 
that 
> > particular instinct to put him on a collision course with this 
> > character. I'm talking here about the way the scene is set up, 
not 
> > Draco's own pov of his own world. Within his pov them's the 
breaks. 
> > (Just as the world conspires *with* Hagrid so that his particular 
> > brand of anthropomorphizing/admiring animals makes him an expert.)
> 
> Prep0strus:
> That much is fine, as your view of the world.  The problem, as i 
see 
> it, is... well, something I find very difficult to explain, and 
wind 
> up mucking it up every time I try.  it's the way of assigning blame 
> to the author vs the characters.  I think it's ok to assign blame 
to 
> jkr for the world she has created, and to assign blame to the 
> characters for their actions.  But in my opinion, it doesn't make 
> much sense to assign blame to the characters for the world - or to 
> fail to assign blame because of the world.

Magpie:
But that's the thing--I'm doing both, but I'm trying to keep them 
separate. In this one scene it maybe seems like they're intersecting 
because I don't side against Draco, but that's just the one scene. 

Like, I blame the author for the general dislike I have of the whole 
storyline as a whole. I can agree that Draco is completely wrong in 
the way he responds to his screw up in class, imo. I just don't 
identify with the characters' own anger about it. So the author's 
failed to get me enjoying the story. It's not like I think that Draco 
is really the big victim here--if he was a good person he'd have 
gotten hurt, gone to the nurse, and gone on with the class--just as 
he does when he gets stuff splashed on him in Snape's class. He takes 
the antidote and gets on with the class. 

However, in the isolated scene where he gets attacked by Buckbeak I 
don't assign him all the blame, because that's just how I read the 
scene--and yes, this maybe does have to do with a view of the world. 
No matter how many times I read it, Draco comes across as a cocky, 
obnoxious kid acting completely within reasonably expected limits of 
behavior as a student in that class, while Hagrid sends up far more 
many red flags as incompetent. 

So when it comes to Draco wanting the animal killed--yeah, that's 
horrible. (In the real world people are often furious and scared and 
angry when they get attacked by peoples' animals, and sometimes do 
demand they be put down--but that's not what we're seeing here. Draco 
seems to be just pure malice.) But within this scene I just don't 
think he's that out of control. So I do think he's a victim in that 
scene, full stop. The fact that he didn't seem to like the aniaml 
doesn't make me furious at him. Hagrid does get blame for me in that 
scene. If I was a member of the class no matter how much I hated 
Draco Malfoy I would still never trust Hagrid with my safety. And I 
don't admire our heroes at all for saying how Draco deserved it 
before he's done any of the nasty things later and his blood's still 
wet on the grass. It's Malfoy--it's his own fault, we have no 
sympathy, he deserved it is what the heroes say in a moment where I 
don't agree with them. 


> Prep0strus:
> I think that's a pretty broad interpretation of the scene.  I tend 
to 
> doubt that anyone can read it the way you are purporting to, but I 
> can't judge someone else for their opinion.  However, i will say 
that 
> as I read it, Draco is being nasty to the hippogriff.  He is 
showing 
> disrespect and arrogant disregard.  I believe his body language and 
> tone would reflect this, and not the joshing way you describe how 
one 
> might deal with a big goofy pet.  Not to mention it still ignores 
the 
> specific instructions he received.

Magpie:
Which way do you mean? Because I didn't say that I thought Draco was 
being affectionate to Buckbeak. I just said that his behavior, by 
real world standards, is not in any way provoking or abusive to an 
animal. So I can't have some sort of visceral reaction to the scene 
as if Draco's just hurt the thing. 

prep0strus: 
> And what if the entire scene does exist just to show us again what 
a 
> little tool Draco is? (Besides setting up the ending where the 
> hippogriff helps in the escape).  Well, that's... writing.  If we 
> took out all the scenes where JKR shows us that Draco is a horrible 
> little boy, then we wouldn't see that Draco is a horrible little 
boy, 
> and then... well, the story would be totally different.  You may 
not 
> like that she made him that way, but she did, and this scene was 
very 
> much in character for him.

Magpie:
I don't disagree that it's in character for him. I've never disagreed 
that he's a little tool and a horrible little boy. But my objectively 
seeing that he's a horrible little tool still doesn't make me hate 
him in this book, or feel worried for Hagrid and our heroes in being 
victimized by him. I'm still always on Draco's side in the over-
arching Draco vs. Hagrid war. As in character as it is for Draco to 
mouth of in class, it's in character for Hagrid to be the annoying 
person he is to me in this book too. Of the two characters I think 
Hagrid is the better person, and yet Draco's the one I root for. And 
in this particular incident I think Hagrid's far more in the wrong. 
It may actually be the only scene in canon where I think Draco's not 
the one most in the wrong, actually, but there it is. Part of being a 
teacher is making sure instructions that are that important are going 
to be followed. 

prep0strus:
 Even in the real world, 
> kids are asked to engage in potentially dangerous activity.  You 
> should pay attention to the saw in woodshop and the oven in home 
ec.  
> Kids swim, ride horses, and take trips to the big bad city, and 
many 
> dangers could befall them if they decide to act like arrogant gits 
> instead of following appropriate directions.

Magpie:
And somebody who ran their class like Hagrid would be fired, imo. 
Kids learn dangers may befall them if they act like arrogant gits 
instead of following appropriate directions (probably often through 
accidents, because teenagers often are arrogant gits who don't follow 
appropriate directions--hello, Marauders. Following those appropriate 
directions to not let the werewolf loose are we? No? Well, that's 
being 15 for ya! Do you dislike them for that?). Adults learn that 
you're responsible for all the kids in your class and if one of them 
gets hurt you will be called to answer for it and if you ran your 
first class the way Hagrid did you might get sued. 

> Prep0strus:
> 
> the difference is in attitude and intent.  No, Draco did not hit 
> buckbeak with a stick.  But acting nastily towards an innocent 
> creature has no place in any situation, and he deliberately 
> disregarded the instructions given him.  Neville messes up - mixes 
> things wrong.  If he could have done it right, he would have.  
> Draco's mistake is deliberate and meanspirited.  They are worlds 
> apart.

Magpie:
To me, he was cocky and said something sullen. (And I think he didn't 
hear that particular *very sloppily expressed* instruction.)  

Where you look at Draco's behavior and see it as so very bad, I look 
at Hagrid's see the same thing--and any description of responsible 
riding instructors etc. just proves my point to me. I think the scene 
is set up with Hagrid's incompetenence setting the scene for what 
happened. Draco can be an obnoxious student who was taught a lesson 
by *Buckbeak* but Hagrid remains to me the annoying spoiled baby 
teacher given a job *he* doesn't deserve because he's tight with the 
headmaster.

> Prep0strus:
> 
> I guess in this case I went with the author.  It's clear to me that 
> Draco DOES suck to the animals, and there's no reading that will 
make 
> me think otherwise.  I can certainly find a lot of suck in her 
> writing, and in a lot of situations... but for this one, it's her 
and 
> Draco.  I can't find much suck in Buckbeak or Griffindors.

Magpie:
And I find that Buckbeak and the Gryffindors do suck in this scene, 
very much so. But it's foolish to think there's any reading that will 
convince either of us to have a different emotional reaction than we 
did the first time. You hate Draco, I hate Hagrid. We naturally both 
think of this scene as exactly why we can't stand the character. 
That's why when I originally replied I just mentioned in passing that 
I didn't read the scene the same way, but went on to agree with your 
basic point. Beyond that we're both just seemingly projecting our own 
personal experiences on different moments in the scene. 

It's not like I approve of kids saying mean things to animals. I 
think Draco should have been called out for doing it. But of course, 
if I were running the class Draco would have probably had to repeat 
all the important instructions before he approached the animal under 
my individual instruction. I would have probably started with a whole 
discussion of what was an insult and exactly how hippogriffs reacted 
and why, and what they would do to you. The class rather depends on 
Hagrid just wanting it to be really fun, and spending most of his 
time making the hippogriffs seem more friendly by doing stuff like 
sticking Harry on it and slapping its behind.  It's a well-
established character trait of Hagrid's that his perception of the 
danger of animals is off. (Later it's "Of course they're not 
dangerous--well, they'll take a piece out of you if you annoy 'em 
but...") Obviously with me as the teacher, there'd be no story. With 
McGonagall or Grubbly-Plank as teacher there'd have been no story. 
The storyline needs Hagrid's problems as well as Draco's.

> Prep0strus:
> You're right that we view it differently.  But not exactly in how I 
> view it. Because I don't view Hagrid as that much outside the WW 
> norm.    And I don't think his 'not listening' was especially bad.  
> His fault would be much less had he simply forgotten to bow - that 
> would mean he had failed to listen to instructions.  but he did 
> listen to the instructions in order to take that step.  I think 
he's 
> such a horrible child not because he doesn't listen to 
instructions, 
> but because of what he does.  He is nasty to the innocent 
hippogriff 
> for no reason.  Then I think he's MORE horrible for what he does 
> after - reneges his own culpability, makes others do his work for 
> him, and attempts to have a creature he knows to be innocent 
KILLED.  
> These are all very different from 'not listening'.

Magpie:
I have the same view of his actions *afterwards* as you do (though I 
don't feel emotionally involved in them). I'm still not that bothered 
by his "big ugly brute" comment because he will just always sound 
like he's just showing off to me than trying to be particularly nasty 
to the animal. But afterwards, well, of course. There's nothing good 
about his playing up his injury or saying he wants the animal put 
down. There he's being a nasty kid whose motivation is being 
malicious to others. It's only in the scene where he's actually 
slashed where I just am not very horrified by his actions. 

prep0strus: 
> As for the class, it seems like the rest of the class was having a 
> great time.  It was a wonderful lesson, and no one would have been 
> hurt - not if Draco simply had listened, but if he wasn't an 
> inherantly nasty child.

Magpie:
Meh. To me the lesson reads as Hagrid wanting to be Mr. Fun and so 
going for a creature he thinks is fun, he breezes over boring stuff 
like making sure the danger is clear to everyone etc. in favor of 
flying on it, and then he just lets everybody loose so that they'll 
all have that great time you say makes the lesson so great. To me the 
fact that somebody got hurt is a no-brainer given that set-up, and 
given that set up blaming the kid--no matter how unlikable the kid is-
-just feels all kind of wrong to me. Wrong in a way Hagrid often is. 
(Luckily, to give JKR credit, the kids in canon actually don't seem 
to side with Hagrid on this kind of thing in later years, however 
much of a great time you feel they were having.) 

> Prep0strus:
> I thought it was clear he HAD heard the instructions, followed them 
> until his inherant arrogance and superiority took over, decided on 
> his own that some dumb creature (either hagrid or the hippogriff) 
had 
> stupid rules, and decidd to disregard them.  He hears the 
> instructions, and then disregards them.  Showing arrogance and 
> stupidity - and also nastiness, in how he disregards them.

Magpie:
And I think the opposite, that he didn't hear the instructions, based 
on the stuff I cited: Draco is whispering right when Hagrid says that 
line about insulting, and Draco's a coward who generally seems pretty 
aware of his own well-being. In fifth year there's even a joke where 
Draco thinks he's missed an instruction and asks what Hagrid said in 
case it's dangerous. This may be central to how we view 
responsibility in the scene, but to be honest even if I thought he 
just didn't believe Hagrid, that still goes partially back to Hagrid 
to me, because even before anything happens I think Hagrid does a 
dreadful job indicating the danger and what not to do. He's really 
handicapped in that area.
> 
> 
> > Magpie:
> > If he was actually provoking this animal intentionally, he was 
> > courageous (and more stupid)--he could have gotten himself 
killed! 
> I 
> > think he's just being arrogant and superior. I am arguing against 
> > him being courageous here.
> 
> 
> Prep0strus:
> Because he has decided it's NOT dangerous.  On his own.  He heard 
the 
> instructions, disregarded them, and then provoked buckbeak once he 
> made his own determination that the rules were a crock.  I don't 
> think he's courageous either.

Magpie:
Neither of us know what's in Draco's head so neither version is 
canon. I understand your reading, I appreciate your explaining how 
you read the scene, but that's all we're doing in that case is giving 
our different versions of what we think is happening in the scene. I 
think my way's more straightforward with what I can see in the 
scene.  

> Prep0strus:
> This scene (and all the subsequent related scenes) also affect me 
as 
> an animal lover and caretaker.  Draco shows disrespect and 
stupidity 
> in his dealings with Buckbeak, regardless of instructions.  The 
fact 
> that he ignores specific instructions just shows his arrogance and 
> continued idiocy.  But then the way buckbeak is supposed to be 
> punished for DRACO'S thoughtless cruelty raises my rancor to a new 
> level.

Magpie:
Well, I'm an animal-lover, but this storyline leaves me cold. I see 
all the same things in the later stuff that you do, that it's cruel 
to demand that the animal be killed. But I don't feel it at all the 
way I do in many other stories or real life things. I don't have the 
kind of visceral reaction to the idea of the animal having anything 
done to it in all this scene. Unfortunately, as I said, for me it's 
blotted out by the icky vibes of the same kind of cruelty coming from 
the story as is coming from the Draco. And in general Hagrid is the 
one that tends to ping my personal buttons about irresponsible 
treatment of animals as well. Buckbeak's impending execution never 
comes across to me as something that's going to happen at all, and it 
also never comes across as any emotional priority for Harry himself, 
since he seems angry about it mostly on the Hagrid principle. 

> > Magpie:
> > I didn't compare anything about their characters in the scene, I 
> > just pointed out that kids goofing around in class is a pretty 
> > normal thing. I don't blame anybody else for Draco's not 
listening 
> > or for insulting the hyppogriff. I just don't think what he did 
in 
> > the scene with Buckbeak is so very surprising for a 13-year-old 
boy-
> -
> > even one who wasn't the most repulsive thing in the universe. 
> 
> Prep0strus:
> Maybe. Maybe.  If we're assuming a stupid, mean boy.  but the way 
he 
> continues the charade to the point where buckbeak will be executed 
is 
> entirely different.  That is a death that would be on Draco's soul 
as 
> surely as Dumbledore's would have been.  it raises the level of o 
the 
> debate to someting else.

Magpie:
To me it doesn't even seem to require a particularly mean boy since 
as I said, to me he seems to be showing off in the scene more than 
anything. I just don't feel that much malice towards Buckbeak. My 
problem with the story is it feels like something shallowly 
sentimental that's supposed to press sure-fire buttons that make me 
go "Awww" because I'm an animal lover, but I feel like it's slapped 
on top of a story that's not very kind at all. You say Draco is a 
monstrous child and I rather agree--but Hagrid's got his monsters he 
sees something good in when nobody else does and I've got mine.

> Prep0strus:
> Like I said, I am unable to read the scene as him petting it in an 
> affectionate way.  It is not in character for Draco.  IMO, he was 
> being as nasty as the words imply. And there IS a difference 
between 
> making a mistake and being nasty.  There is no intent behind 
Neville -
>  his mistake is akin to tripping over a log and falling down.  
> Draco's mistake is akin to sticking his leg out and making someone 
> else fall down.  He doesn't make the mistake by forgetting to bow.  
> he makes the mistake by being nasty to teh hippogriff.  These 
things 
> are so different.

Magpie:
Just to reiterate, I'm not claiming that Draco is being affectionate. 
I'm saying that the physical actions that he is doing in the scene 
are in no way abusive to me. And since I think that Draco's mistake 
is very much like tripping over a log and falling down, I don't think 
it's different than Neville--except that Draco's being obnoxious at 
the time. Draco doesn't forget to bow because, imo, he heard that as 
the instructions and he's trying to follow the instructions because 
he doesn't want to be eaten. He would, imo, have not insulted if he 
had heard that might be "the last thing he did." Just as Neville 
would put in only one spleen if he knew that was right, because 
Neville doesn't want his Potion to blow up, and Draco doesn't want to 
get ripped apart by an animal.


> Prep0strus:
> I guess that's your perogotive, but it still seems strange to me to 
> not be bothered by someone simply because you know you're supposed 
to 
> be bothered by someone.  It doesn't make his actions any more 
> sypathetic or admirable.

Magpie:
I can't explain it, but that was my honest reaction to the book--and 
I'm not alone. Draco's my favorite character in the series even 
though he turned out to be a dud imo. I've read plenty of books where 
I disliked a character because I felt like the author wanted me to 
like them--or at least, that exacerbated my dislike. That happens all 
the time when people read. I did a thing once where I asked people to 
list the characters they hated most in fiction and most of them had 
some element of the author presenting the character as an obviously 
admirable person. The same works in reverse--have you really never 
had that experience? Draco was like the Wile E. Coyote of the 
Potterverse for so long I totally rooted for him. (Also I love him in 
most CoMC classes.)

> Prep0strus:
> If Buckbeak had gotten executed, as the first death of the series 
(an 
> animal leading up easier to Cedric) would your feelings change?  
> Would the fact that there were consequences on the other side 
change 
> your feelings?  Because the intent was the same, whether he got 
away 
> or not.

Magpie:
Perhaps. I don't think the character could have really recovered from 
actually causing the death of an animal. But at the same time I think 
death was a totally unreal thing for Draco so I don't think the 
intent was the same. In all the first five books there's something 
about Draco and death where he thinks it's cool, but in the end, when 
he sees the reality, he actually doesn't think so. So I don't think 
it's actually part of his character to wish death on peoples' pets or 
other people now that death is a reality. (Of course if Buckbeak had 
been killed he would still have been responsible for it and that 
would have changed the character, just as it would have changed Ginny 
if she'd killed someone in CoS.)

prep0strus:
> i'd have felt honored to bow to a hippogriff, and wish that draco 
had 
> gotten his stupid little head clawed off for sticking me with 
> flobberworms for the rest of the year.

Magpie:
See, while I would have bowed to the hippogriff too (which Draco 
does) I am very bothered by the idea that Draco got anybody stuck 
with flobberworms. To me, that's all about Hagrid's personality and 
limits as a teacher--as is his setting things up so that something 
was going to happen. Hagrid's career as a teacher to me reflects 
Hagrid 100% and not Draco. And just as none of this would have 
happened if Draco hadn't done what he did, well, same with Hagrid. 
Hagrid's problems as a teacher are a mild irritation for Harry even 
when he tries to ignore them. If I were a student I don't think I 
don't think I'd blame Draco as much as Hagrid. I might have thought 
Draco was awful in the first class and been mad at him for a while, 
but I think I would quickly realize, if I hadn't already thought it, 
that oh no, the trouble is having a bad teacher. Hagrid is, imo, a 
teacher bad unlike other teachers in a way that reflects him as a 
character in general.

Pippin:
The DE's are there because the Carrows told Voldemort that Harry
was at Hogwarts, the Carrows are at Hogwarts, symbolically,
(though not literally) because the vanishing cabinet let them in,
and it let them in because of what the twins did. That's plenty
ironic and connected enough for me.

Magpie:
Really? To me that's far too convuluted to come up with it being 
karmic. I think Fred dies a hero fighting for the school, period, and 
the Carrows being there has barely anything to do with the Vanishing 
Cabinets much less what they did. It's nowhere in the same galaxy as 
ironic or connected enough for it to feel like karma to me. If felt 
more just like more proof that This Book Is Dark Because Beloved 
Characters Die! to me.

-m