Marietta and Pettigrew/ a little of Bathilda + the snake

Sat Sep 8 15:34:12 UTC 2007

No: HPFGUIDX 176874

> Alla:
> 
> Pettigrew was selling information for a **year**. Thanks to 
Hermione  -
> ONCE would have been the most what traitor of the DA would have 
been  
> able to do, since everybody would have seen him, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Julie:
> You do realize you keep making as negative assumptions as 
possible  about
> Marietta (that she might have kept feeding out information, which 
makes no  
> real
> sense, as once the secret is out, it is out), while making as 
positive  
> assumptions
> as possible about Peter Pettigrew <SNIP>

Alla:

Before we **look at the facts**, lets be clear about me making 
assumptions and which one I was actually making and which once I was 
not? I most certainly 
was **not** making positive assumptions about Peter. That was my 
point, I was trying to say that those things about him are **not** 
true, most likely - like in him being tortured. I was saying that 
just as **positive** assumptions about Peter are not true, they are 
not shown clearly to me about Marietta and judging by JKR intent I 
was saying that to me it was most likely done on purpose that she 
did not show it clearly. Was I making assumption about Marietta that 
she would continue giving information to Umbridge?

Sure, that one I was making. I believe it is a reasonable one to 
make.

And now let's look on the facts :)

Julie:
> Peter betrays two of his closest friends and their baby--yes, a 
BABY no  
> less--
> to *certain* death. He knows exactly what Voldemort plans to do 
and he  gives
> him the information anyway.
>  
> Marietta betrays her closest friend (along with other students) 
to  possible
> explusion. That is the canon threat, not torture by Umbridge (we 
have zero 
> canon stating that Marietta knows what Umbridge did to Harry or  
anyone else,
> as we have no scene where said torturees display their torture 
marks to  the
> DA, so that is only unsupported supposition). <SNIP>

Alla:

Sorry, till somebody tells me that I dreamed up that mentioning that 
other students were subjected to blood quils, I disagree that it is 
unsupported supposition. I think it is more than reasonable for 
Marietta to know about that.

So, to me she did betray them to torture and expalsion, but sure, 
not death. Thus Marietta herself alive at the end IMO.

And if you ask me who I think written as more horrifying Voldemort 
or Umbridge, hmmmmm, before book 7 Umbridge wins hands down, now she 
is still a bit ahead for me.

> Julie:
<SNIP about Peter I agree with and Marietta torn loyalties I 
disagree with> 

> And what else...let's see...
>  
> Peter passed on information to Voldemort for a period of months 
(a  year?)
> before he betrayed the Potters. <SNIP>  
> Marietta never passed on any other damaging information in canon, 
and has 
> no reputation in canon for being untrustworthy among her peers. 

Alla:

Marietta has never passed on any damaging information in canon? 
Okay, I guess we disagree more than I thought. I consider what she 
passed to Umbridge to be very damaging.

And as I said, I say thank you Hermione for preventing possibility 
of future Peter. I cannot exclude the possibility of Umbridge 
telling Marietta to continue do so.

Julie:
> Peter intentionally or through gross negligence got 12 Muggles  
killed.
>  
> Marietta got no one killed, or even hurt in the end.

Alla:

And that is why she is not killed IMO.

Julie:  
> Peter let Sirius rot in Azkaban for 12 years while knowing 
his "friend" was 
> innocent of any crime.
>  
> Marietta has never sent anyone to Azkaban, and we have no canon 
that
> any student could actually be sent to Azkaban if Umbridge even 
tried,  and
> plenty of canon that Dumbledore, who is set on saving someone even 
as 
> set toward evil as Draco, is not going to let any of his students 
be sent  to
> Azkaban. Thus no canon that Marietta though this was a likely or 
even  a
> possible result (as it indeed was not).

Alla:

No canon? Well, there was that hearing on Harry and expulsion and 
possible Azkaban, but besides that no canon you are right. And hmmmm 
canon about Dumbledore saving students. I do not seem to remember 
Dumbledore saving students from Umbridge quill, not talking about 
just Harry even. I seem to remember Dumbledore being oh so very 
powerless to stop Umbridge from taking power in school.

Julie:
<SNIP>  
> Marietta...well, she's falling terribly far behind in  comparison, 
isn't she?

Alla:

I am afraid not. Not to me. The fact that Marietta did not do those 
horrible things that Peter did I cannot credit to Marietta, only to 
other people preventing her from doing that. The initial set up as 
how everything started bears huge similarities to me.

Julie: 
> Basically the comparison is between a girl betrayed her friends  
in a one-time
> school incident--a betrayal to be sure, and one that deserved some 
sort  of
> outing (though to my mind what she got was extreme), and a 
boy/man  who
> betrayed those who trusted him over and over again (giving info 
to  Voldemort)
> and his friends to certain death and to incarceration in a 
hellhole prison,  
> who
> also murdered a teenager without remorse and set up another one to 
die,  and
> who willingly and with complete foreknowledge resurrected a 
psychopath and 
> thus was partly responsible for dozens (perhaps hundreds) who 
died  during
> the second war against Voldemort. 

Alla:

Yea, pretty much that is the comparison, except of course the 
comparison is between the initial betrayal, if you wish. Not between 
Pettigrew long career of betrayal. Thank you Hermione again IMO.

As far as I know Pettigrew could start exactly like Marietta did - 
somebody from Voldie circle came to him, threatened or whatever ( 
that is what he says in the Shack, no) and he was torned in his 
loyalties or something ( or he likely was not) and it all started 
from there.

Only Marietta could not do any more damage. Whether she would want 
to, it is of course arguable. But if we go by JKR's reaction, I 
suspect she may want to.  IMO of course.

Julie:
<SNIP>  
> So it's beyond me that one can feel sympathy for Peter,  yet
> feel none for Marietta. 

Alla:

Except I do not feel sympathy for Pettigrew, Ok? I attempted to 
defend him once long time ago and realised that if this is something 
I do not believe in, I rather not attempt defending the character.

My whole point was that just as sympathy towards Pettigrew is 
unsupported except by his whining, the signs about Marietta's torn 
loyalties, danger to her mother, etc etc may just not be supported 
for me as well.

> Julie, who respects JKR's or anyone else's right to believe that 
Marietta 
> deserved what she got, while believing in a more merciful and  
forgiving brand
> (oops, pun) of justice than the eye for an eye (or two arms and a 
leg for  an
> eye) version.

Alla:

Somebody once said ( do not remember who) that "eye for an eye" is 
the most misunderstood punishment of Old Testament. It prohibits 
vendettas and promotes proportional punishment. Word of agreement 
with that sentiment.

> > Ceridwen:
> > Don't laugh, all right?  At least, don't tell me if you do.  I 
read 
> > the scene, I got the idea that Bathilda had been dead for some 
time 
> > (the stench), I got that Nagini was in her animated corpse lying 
in 
> > wait for Harry to show up, I understood that it was Nagini who 
saw 
> > through the cloak, not Bathilda (she also saw through Moody's 
cloak 
> > in OotP), I understood that Bathilda was an animated corpse 
because 
> > Nagini couldn't walk like a woman and so needed the corpse to 
keep up 
> > the pretense, but I never once thought that Bathilda was an 
Inferus.

Alla:

Just wanted to say that I will not laugh since I also got what you 
did and never once thought that Batilda was an Inferus as well. DUH.

This is amazing. Those are little thingies which we discover about 
the book together - the details we would never gotten to know on our 
own. Love it.

I mean repulsed by the scene, but love that now I learned something 
new about it.