Dark Book, was Re: Dark Magic (+ a little Marietta)/Karma and the Twins/Liking

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 176885

> > Pippin:
> > The DE's are there because the Carrows told Voldemort that Harry
> > was at Hogwarts, the Carrows are at Hogwarts, symbolically,
> > (though not literally) because the vanishing cabinet let them in,
> > and it let them in because of what the twins did. That's plenty
> > ironic and connected enough for me.
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > Really? To me that's far too convuluted to come up with it being 
> > karmic. I think Fred dies a hero fighting for the school, period, 
and 
> > the Carrows being there has barely anything to do with the 
Vanishing 
> > Cabinets much less what they did. 
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> Poetic allusions always sound convoluted if you try to explain them.
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is that I expected the twins to reap
> some consequences, so when the Carrows reappear, the cabinet
> reappears and (BANG!)  the long feared Weasley death happens
> to Fred because a wall falls on him, I get that he died because 
> his life was  worthless to someone else in the same
> way that Montague's was to him. YMMV.

Magpie:
To me it's more that that because it's not even poetic to my ears. 
The Twins would be at Hogwarts fighting in the final battle 
regardless, because there was always going to be a final battle at 
Hogwarts with DEs vs. the Twins. They died the same way Tonks and 
Lupin and Colin did. Fred's death didn't remind me of Montague's 
problems at all. He especially didn't seem worthless to anyone, 
because while Montague's trouble is a joke from the pov of the reader 
(ha ha we stuffed him in a Cabinet as part of Umbridge's stupid 
squad, ha ha his head's in a toilet), Fred's is unexpected but 
totally serious and cared-about. He died because among other things, 
the death of one twin is very sad, and the death of a jokester 
immediately makes a point (the ghost of his last laugh on his face). 
Montague--or any of the other times the Twins treated anyone else 
badly--didn't enter my mind. All that stuff almost seemed erased with 
this kind of death--and that's even suggesting the stuff wasn't 
supposed to be good fun to begin with. I got the feeling part of what 
was sad about the loss of Fred is he wouldn't be able to give any 
more bullies what-for.

The deaths that do seem tied to a person's actions to me are far more 
obvious: Sirius is taunting Bellatrix, his cousin. Bellatrix's last 
moment is compared to Sirius' exactly. Peter is killed by the gift 
from his master. Their deaths all came straight out of their faults. 
(Sirius' isn't karmic, though, imo.)

Pippin:
> "I shall expect you and the Slytherins in the Great Hall in twenty 
minutes,
> also, " said Professor McGonagall. "If you wish to leave with your 
students, 
> we shall not stop you. But if any of you attempt to sabotage our 
resistance
> or take arms against us within this castle, Horace, we duel to 
kill."
> 
> "Minerva!" he said, aghast.
> 
> As well he should be. Look at what she said: if any Slytherins
> side with Voldemort, Horace and the entire House  will be 
> held responsible, and duelled to the death,  ickle firsties and 
all. 
> And then, just to make sure we don't miss the point (ah, but we do, 
> because we're in the grip of our delusionary faith that JKR won't 
let
> the other houses do anything really bad) the students draw wands 
> on the Slytherin table, most of whom are children.
> 

Magpie:
I don't hear her say that at all. She said if anybody takes up arms 
against the school that person will be dueled with to kill, not that 
if one Slytherin does something bad she's going to kill all the 
Slytherins even if they're 11 years old. Slughorn is aghast at her 
accusation that the Slytherins might side against them, and that she 
is ready to kill any of them, not all of them--at least that's what I 
got from it.

Pippin:
> Harry, who once sprang between Sirius and Snape to keep them
> from harming one another,  is awestruck and overwhelmed. 
> 
> And people think Slytherin leaving en masse is supposed to be a 
sign 
> that *they* have no moral compass? Excuse me? 
> 
> You want to know where the good Slytherins went? They walked
> out when the other houses turned to madness and evil, as
> briefly deluded as Dumbledore once was.  
> 
> No, it's not obvious. But that's what all the folderol about the 
> Elder Wand is for, to slow us down, as Dumbledore said, and
> make us *think*.

Magpie:
I think it's more than not obvious. I think it's not there--and if it 
was I don't think it would be that subtle. McGonagall is saying it's 
time for Slytherin to pick a side, and they don't choose Hogwart's 
side. When Pansy gets up she's a rep of the house, she tries to get 
rid of Harry, and everyone orders them out at wandpoint--because 
they're ready to defend Harry from any Slytherin who tries to hurt 
him or give him to Voldemort. I can't assume there were Slytherins 
who were ordered out and were thinking they really wanted to stay 
(I've not seen any signs of it)--and I don't really think that's what 
I was supposed to think. I think people like McGonagall were supposed 
to be awesome in those last chapters, including her demands that 
Slytherin is with them or against them. Perfect in every way? No. 
Horrible for the way the treat the Slytherins? I don't think so. The 
Slytherins were fine, and got through the war with only one student 
casualty, who killed himself.

Betsy Hp:
Yes, exactly. We're told *and shown* time and again that Hagrid as a
teacher is the big suck. So again, I thought this was an example of
JKR being subtle and having an overlying obvious interpertation that
would get thrown over in the end by the more subtle interpertation.

Magpie:
Yes, I thought that for a while too. But I eventually thought it was 
more that she just found Hagrid's foibles amusing and cuddly--Harry 
in the first book doesn't think to call Hagrid on giving him 
detention *for helping Hagrid keep out of bigger trouble himself.* He 
also easily forgives him for every other silly thing he does that 
would put people in danger (if Dumbledore set up hexes for people who 
passed on information Hagrid would be in more trouble than Peter!). I 
think his whole teaching thing is that he's just a bad teacher in his 
way like Snape is a bad teacher in his way. Only she finds Hagrid's 
bad teaching funny and wants to defend him. Being anti-Hagrid is a 
way of being subtly anti-Harry. (Parvati and Luna are both good guys, 
but their moments of not supporting Hagrid are moments of conflict 
with the Trio.)

Betsy Hp:
For myself, since I started out liking Draco from his very first
scene (much as I liked Snape from his very first scene) it wasn't so
much a knee-jerk, JKR wants me to hate these guys so I will
stubbornly decide to like them.

Magpie:
Draco had me from "He's some sort of servant isn't he? Exactly." I 
guess that's the moment where you either get appalled that Draco is a 
snob who refers to Hagrid as a servant, or you laugh because you like 
clueless snob characters. I'm in the latter category. I do now rather 
assume JKR is in the former category--as I said elsewhere, the go-
getters working their way to the top are in Gryffindor, while 
Slytherin seems to get the side of ambition that means cheating, 
networking, bigotry, bribery and exclusion--ambition robbed of the 
talent and hard-work found in the ambitious good guys.

BetsyHp:
And, in what I considered an odd and distasteful move, the Trio's
unrecognized faults turned out to not be faults at all. Apparently
they really *could* judge whether someone was good or bad on sight.
And their violent bullying of others was, I guess showing spirit, or
something?

Magpie:
It probably didn't help that that very kind of story--one that 
interests me--did end up happening to Slytherin characters. They were 
the ones who had their bad behavior and choices rubbed in their face 
and cause them pain. Only they didn't change in the way I thought 
they would so their storylines weren't transformative. That's a 
difference in the pov of Lewis and Rowling it seemed to me. However 
much Rowling didn't like Susan being kept out of heaven at the end 
(due to her liking lipstick and nylons--though Susan could still get 
to Narnia eventually), Lewis seems to love sinners more. 

-m