[HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: DH3, The Dursleys Departing

[k12listmomma]

No: HPFGUIDX 177274


From: "doddiemoemoe" <doddiemoemoe at yahoo.com>
CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
Chapter 3, The Dursleys Departing
1. The way Vernon calls to Harry speaks volumes about their relationship. 
What strikes you about this and what do you think it means? Is Vernon's 
behavior here consistent with that in the other books?

Doddie:
It doesn't necessarily speak volumes to their relationship as to lack of 
one...no sympathy or loss on any side..Although, I do think that Vernon's 
rages often left Harry with a fit of the giggles..but because someone that 
prejudiced and thinking they are the best and on top of the world always 
make the most absurd statements and often behave in the most absurd fashion.

Shelley:
I think it DOES speak volumes about their relationship, and Vernon's 
behavior is totally consistent with the other books. He's rather a pompous 
asshole, and even on his final parting with Harry, he can't even bare to say 
a proper goodbye, which is exactly what he's done before. Remember, when Mr. 
Weasley picked Harry up, he was astounded by Vernon's rude manners toward 
Harry, and here, so are Hestia and Dedalus. Because Vernon is nothing but an 
asshole, Harry should be totally happy to finally be rid of him.


2. Although Vernon is the chief disciplinarian at Privet Drive, clearly it 
is Petunia who sets the tone of the family's relationship
with Harry. We learn in Book 1 that it is her rage and resentment towards 
Lily that is playing out in her treatment of Harry. What do you think 
Petunia sees when she looks at Harry, and how does it make her feel?

Doddie:
I don't believe Vernon is the chief disciplinarian...I think it was 
Petunia's recommendations he put into effect. (something I wouldn't consider 
to be setting the tone)...and she did have a massive role in raising 
Dudders. I think Petunia was most jealous of Harry and didn't want Duddley 
to feel the same as she...Neither Vernon nor Petunia see Dudders as 
something other than a sprout of themselves...trying to live vicariously 
through him..(Petunia was Jealous and set out to make Harry 
jealous...Vernon..wanted to be the big shot yet never was to tried to mold 
Duldley in that mold...I loved it that Harry basically demolished both of 
their efforts by saving their lives.

Shelley:
I agree with Doddie- Vernon is not the chief disciplinarian. I think Petunia 
is so focused on hatred for her sister and for wizards in general that she 
ALLOWS Vernon (and Dudley) to bully and mistreat Harry. I think she deludes 
herself that she is a "proper aunt" to Harry, taking him in and raising him, 
and thinks she's doing everything right and good. By allowing Vernon to 
mistreat Harry, she kids herself that SHE is the loving one, all while 
denying outwardly that she is the one who distains Harry. She does it on 
purpose; contrasted to Vernon who is just an asshole, and that to me makes 
her the worst of the two.


3. Many of us expected a confrontation between Harry and Petunia in DH, but 
instead, Jo (as she usually does) surprised us by giving us Petunia's back 
story in another context.

Doddie:
I didn't expect a confrontation as much as an explanation...We only got an 
explanation from Snape's perspective unfortunately. I think if we had 
Petunia's explanation Harry may not have middled-named his kid Severus...LOL

Shelley:
Again, I agree with Doddie- I never expected a "confrontation", because that 
is just not Petunia's style. She'll talk about people behind their backs, 
but never to their faces, so she would never be the one to spill her 
feelings to Harry. First of all, to do that is to admit that she had 
feelings, that she was the jealous one, that she was frightened by that 
"awful boy", and that she did a really courageous act by writing to 
Dumbledore, only to be humiliated when she was turned down. No, Petunia's 
story came just as I expected it to- through the eyes of someone else, 
because Petunia would never really get around to having a real relationship 
with Harry.


4. What do you think she would have said to Harry had she chosen to speak at 
this time? Will Harry and Petunia ever see each other again? Is there 
unfinished business between them?

Doddie:
Petunia would have been all about "we" cannot be in "your world" and "your 
world" kept my sister from me..and YOUR WORLD was not good enough for me, 
therefore it was not good enough MY sister--who was MY sister well before 
she was YOUR mother..and how dare you stare at me with HER eye's all these 
years...her eyes were the only reason I
managed find it within me to change all your diapers which you tortured me 
with because you a "great wizard" even at one magic'd the mess away when I 
ignored you...but always managed a mess when I did change you." and the end 
part of petunia's schpeel would have been, "and if I hadn't had to share my 
mothering between my beloved dudders and you, HE would have went to Hogwarts 
too...and he would have outshown you in every way!".

Harry would say nothing his mouth would be hanging agape...

Shelley:
At first we disagree! Nah, if Petunia had spoken at all, it would have been 
a short, snide remark. It would have been something like: "Well, get on with 
it, you and your freaks."


5. After Dudley's encounter with the dementors in Book 5, fans wondered what 
experiences Dudley relived. From Harry's point of view, Dudley had never had 
a moment of fear, doubt or sadness in his entire life. But something 
life-changing happened to Dudley during that encounter, as we see in DH. 
What do you think Dudley saw, and how did it change him?

Doddie:
Well JKR said he saw himself exactly as he was...which IMHO would have been 
worse than all the first Hellraiser movie..(completely horrifying--dunno 
about the sequels...but that first one left something truly memorable)

Shelley:
I kind of wonder if Dudley had all the "things" taken from him, because 
that's what seemed to make him happy- tv, his bike, his toys, and if he was 
left with "nothing", because he never really developed a relationship with 
anyone. I don't think he "relived" anything as much as experience for the 
first time that he would be utterly and truly ALONE, because of that lack of 
relationships. And so, what changed is Dudley's sudden recognition that yes, 
people do matter, more than things or temporary pleasures.


6. What was your reaction on reading Dudley's unexpected defense of Harry?

Doddie:
I was overjoyed that Duddley had recognized his mum and da definitely were 
wrong..this is a huge thing for a kid...when one
cannot put one's parents on overly high ornate pedastals...This also 
foreshadowed Harry's journey with his surrogate parents over the years. I 
suppose this is why little of lily is known...the shining star to so 
many.(Harry, Snape, Sluggy, James, Sirius, Lupin, and hell, even Petunia!)

Shelley:
I was incredibly sad!!! Here, we see Dudley growing up to be someone other 
than his asshole father, and it's the last time we will ever see him. I was 
hoping for some more time, to see more of this new Dudley.


7. Do you see Dudley and Harry having any further contact throughout their 
lives?

Doddie:
Yes I do..because Dudley will want to keep in contact.

Shelley:
I would hope so too, because Dudley doesn't have much of a good role model 
in his mom and dad, now does he? Harry is about the only person who would be 
really honest with him, and I think Dudley would need that and want to spend 
more time with Harry so that he could learn to be a better person from him.


8. How would Dudley's worries about Harry affect his relationship with his 
(Dudley's) parents?

Doddie:
I always saw Dudley listening to the same radio show that Lee Jordan 
broadcast while visiting in the WW..I think Dudley went into the WW with an 
open mind. something his parents couldn't do..and his parents raised such a 
bully that we know at the least he'd bully them into what HE wanted to 
do...probably the one thing Dudders parents didn't pack was a book...and 
they ventured forth into a land with only the Wizarding Wireless. LOL I love 
to imagine Vernon getting the sweats as he was withdrawing from lack of the 
nightly news.
Also, I see Petunia having secret cleaning lessons with Hestia, as to what 
can clean the best muggle methods vs. wizarding
methods...not that they'd ever talk about it...they would just watch each 
other with smirks...

Shelley:
No, I don't think it will have any affect at all, because I think either he 
won't share them (his fears and concerns for Harry) with his parents, or his 
parents won't allow him to talk about Harry. He could ask about Harry from 
the other wizards, but that's the only way that I see it happening, when his 
parents aren't around or aren't paying attention that he's asking the 
wizards for answers.
Vernon and Petunia, I could see leading very dysfunctional, almost 
skitafrentic lives- living with magic and magic people, and yet trying to 
pretend so hard that it doesn't exist, and they are just on a pleasant 
holiday. I don't see them even allowing the wizards to talk about Harry in 
their presence, as that would remind them that he is their nephew, and that 
he is in danger.


10. The ways in which Harry arrives at and leaves Privet Drive every year 
are significant. What are your thoughts on this? Think of the way he first 
came to the Dursleys' home in PS and the way he left in DH. Think also of 
the ways he leaves and returns in each book. What can we learn about Harry 
from this?

Doddie:
He arrived and left on sirius' motor bike driven by Hagrid..(he came and 
left the same). DD chose well...(wow could DD's plan be this drawn out)

Shelley:
He came with the wizards, he left with the wizards. He never belonged in the 
Muggle world to begin with. The other partings of that house were sad, 
because he knew that he was bound to that house, in that he had to return 
there, and there was no happiness for him in that house. This parting was a 
contrast, in that he was severing a chain that bound him to the Muggle 
world, and for once, he would be free to be who he was- a wizard.


11. How the Order was operating since Dumbledore's death? It didn't seem to 
be much of democracy while he was alive. How would decisions be made without 
him?

Doddie:
I think it was quite the democracy and I think Molly may well have been  the 
reasoning behind DD's many decisions in OOP...and it wasn't all Molly but 
Sirius too...between both of them give and take...which left Harry wholy 
unsatisfied of course..Parents with common goals and different approaches 
are infuriating to a teen...

Shelley:
I think that just like with the resistance movement at Hogwarts, when one 
leader leaves, another one rises to take his or her place. Neville took 
Ginny's place, and I think someone like Kingsley would have taken 
Dumbledore's. The new leader had to be someone whom they all respected, and 
so I can't see it being a democracy because they would be all arguing over 
their own agendas. I don't think the Order could ever be a democracy, 
because there is strength in acting upon the wishes of a great and trusted 
leader, but if you are doing your own thing, you constantly doubt whether 
you are doing the right thing. So much of the bravery of the Order members 
came from their trust in Dumbledore, and so I think they would need that 
same dependency on a new leader to keep reassuring them and leading them on 
to brave action.


12. Did you wonder what would happen to the Dursleys' lives while they were 
in hiding? Would Vernon lose his job? How would their bills get paid? Or 
were you happy to see the back of them? *grin*

Doddie:
I did wonder. Vernon didn't loose his job..Deadalus took polyjuice potion 
and went to work for him daily in the middle at first he disslusioned 
himself and went to work with Vernon...As a result Vernon ended up owning 
the company...especially since Vernon wasn't watching tv etc...because 
Vernon could continue to work Dudders helped his father to enable him to pay 
his bills on-line. I was happy to see the back of them...but found great 
delight in my speculation as to how their experiences may have been in the 
WW...

Shelley:
I wondered about the HOUSE more than I did the Dursleys, LOL. I wondered if 
it got robbed, was burnt down, if the war spilled over into ruining any 
residential areas to destroy it. I thought, just like with Hermione's 
parents, that the Dursleys would just start a new life over somewhere else. 
I never gave them (except for Dudley growing up to be a real man, and if he 
kept in touch with Harry) a second thought.


13. In PS and CS, Hedwig travels directly from Privet Drive to Hogwarts on 
the train along with Harry. In books 3-6, she is free to fly about on her 
own for a while before meeting Harry and returning to school. Here, she is 
confined to her cage and not happy about it. Did you see this as a 
foreshadowing of her fate in the next chapter? Was it meant that way?

Doddie:
At first I saw it as Harry feeling like he needed her...(he always did even 
when he didn't)..Harry did name her after the patron saint of orphans...she 
was a security blanket for him...she had to die...otherwise we would have 
spend the entire DH's worrying about Hedwig...we would have thought she 
could save him in some way...So yes it was meant that way.

Shelley:
I felt totally sick that Hedwig's final moments were of being trapped in a 
cage. I would have preferred that she was flying free before that, or off 
with another family. (She could have been at Ron's, after delivering a 
message and told to stay there until he arrived, and she could have stayed 
there the entire year he was camping, and we wouldn't have worried about 
her, but knew that they would be reunited once again. She didn't have to 
die!!!) I was also sick that his final moments with Hedwig weren't something 
I could look back on and smile upon.

Doddiemoe,
(no witty statement to make other than Petunia makes me want to vomit.she's 
too much like Snape for me--oops id I say that?.)

Shelley:
Ooh, Snape and Petunia. An interesting couple!