HatingDH/Dementors/Squib!Draco/Marietta/FamilyLoyalty/Draco/Death/KeepSlyther

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 177562

CathyD wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177502>:

<< Perhaps the disappointed should start a new e-mail list so we can
voice our own opinions without fear of someone rushing in to try to
save us from ourselves. >>

'Disappointed' covers a lot of territory. Some people enjoyed the book
despite being disappointed because they wanted Snape to live and
finally have a happy life or they wanted Harry to marry Hermione
instead of Ginny or they wanted to learn the details of The Prank.
Some people found the camping section boring and were disappointed
because that part wasn't entertaining to them.

Some people appear to be expressing an opinion that the book is not
merely not enjoyable to them, but that it is downright evil. Because
Rowling's portrayal of Slytherin House encourages people to be
prejudiced against entire groups of people instead of viewing them as
each individual. Because Harry casting a Cruciatis Curse without
feeling guilty or being scolded for it will make some readers think
that it's okay for them (because everyone is the good guy in their own
story) to use any means regardless of law or ethics. And other reasons.

And a lot of the posts saying that DH is an evil book give me the
feellng that the poster is saying that anyone who fails to dislike
such an evil book (such as me) is a bad person. 

I probably am a bad person, as I read HP for entertainment rather than
for moral instruction, and I am interested in the characters, and the
world that Rowling invented, and it doesn't matter much to me if the
scheme is implausible, I never quite understood the conspiracy, the
plot only works because of many convenient co-incidences, and there
isn't a chapter about the funeral honoring those who died on the good
side.

Laura wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177338>:

<< If you don't think you've ever done anything bad or shameful, you'd
have nothing to fear from Azkaban. If you're convinced that might is
right, and you've had might behind you and will again, you'd have
nothing to fear from Azkaban. >>

I don't agree. I'm sure Dementors can suck the happiness out of anyone
who has any happiness. They should be able to suck out Bellatrix's
happy thoughts, which presumably would be that she was loyal to LV,
that LV will return, and when he returns he will reward her. Sirius
said "I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I
was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't
suck it out of me... but it kept me sane and knowing who I am... " So
I guess it was the UNhappy thought that she had failed and maybe LV
would never return that kept Bellatrix sane.

Potioncat wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177342>:

<< How would Narcissa have reacted if Draco had been a Squib? >>

Well, Lucius and Narcissa wouldn't have suspected for a while, and
then they'd be in denial. Besides providing toddler Draco with the
luxuries he deserves as the Malfoy heir, they'd buy him a lot of toys
that are supposed to stimulate his magic powers. Maybe the toy
broomstick only works for riders who have innate magic power, for
example. I don't think they'd do things so crude as dropping him out
of a window.

I figure they'd start coming out of denial when he was 4 or 5, and
start taking him to medimagical specialists in search of a cure. I
think that soon Lucius would start pressuring Narcissa to have another
baby, because he needs a wizard heir. I don't know whether Narcissa
wants another child (maybe she wants a girl, to have one of each) or
would she resist having another child because it was intended (by
Lucius) as attack on her Draco's position.

I don't know if medimagical specialists can be sure which child is a
Squib or nobody can be certain until it's time for the Hogwarts Letter
that doesn't come. If Squibism can be detected early, it might be the
Pureblood tradition to choose some Muggles to adopt the little Squib
(and raise him as a Muggle) while putting out a report that their
child had died of some disease. (Perhaps the origin of the changeling
theory.) Lucius would certainly want to do that, while Narcissa would
DEMAND to KEEP her BABY!!

If no one knows until the child is 11, then all the gossipmongers will
know that the child is a Squib, so pretending he just died won't avoid
the disgrace to the family, so maybe the pureblood tradition would go
along with Narcissa's preference to keep him at home and treat him
like a pet or an invalid, or locked in the attic. I like to think that
*Lucius* would want to really kill him, so as not to have an unworthy
heir. I like to think that the only people Lucius loves are himself
and Narcissa.

Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177343>:

<< But any society which depends on bonds of mutual trust and
obligation is going to see treachery as a threat not to the individual
but to the fabric of society itself. Even without scars, Marietta
would not find it easy to ever gain the trust of anyone who knew what
she'd done, and in a society that depends on trust she would be
crippled. The scars are a way to visualize that. >>

But it seems there are a significant number of people in the wizarding
world who think that loyalty to family is more important than loyalty
to the Defense Association, and they would think Marietta was a good
person and not object to her marrying into their family and family
business. As for purely business dealings with her, just make sure
that the deal is good for her family.

It seems there are a few people in the wizarding world who think that
loyalty to the Ministry of Magic is more important than loyalty to the
DA, and such people also would approve of Marietta. I think there
could only be a few wizards of that opinion, as the wizarding world is
so anarchic, and one would *hope* that the recent experience of the
Ministry having been taken over by Voldemort would shake their certainty.

But there certainly seem to be a lot of people in America who seem to
believe that our government is always right, regardless how much they
complain about taxes and politicians and bureaucrats and say that the
government does wrong thing. One example was in a recent debate about
a new law that police must record all interrogations and confessions
in cases of serious or violent crimes. So that the DA can play the
tape for the jury to hear that the suspect really did confess and the
police hadn't beaten him and held a gun to his head and told him
they'd kill him if he didn't confess. The 'con' speaker said "We have
to trust the police." Even Rafael Perez. 

Betsy Hp wrote of the Defense Associaton in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177357>:

<< For me it was the loyalty to the group trumping loyalty to your
family. Any time an organization asks that of their followers, it's a
major, major warning sign to me that something twisted is going on.
And it's what most repulsed me about the Hitler Youth. >>

You must be one of the people in the first paragraph of my reply to
Pippin, immediately above. I hope you apply your principle to real
life groups of which I strongly disapprove that urge American children
to turn in their parents for marijuana possession, but that's a
digression. The real issue of discussion is, at what point does
loyalty to family get trumped? Of course Draco wants to keep his
beloved father alive and out of Azkaban, but suppose sometime after
LV's final fall, Lucius kills a couple of people for revenge or
business advantage or whatever. Should Draco help him conceal the
evidence and concoct a false alibi, maybe help frame some innocent
person, or merely help him flee the country before trial? Suppose
Draco helps conceal the evidence and Lucius then orders Draco to help
him kill a witness against him. Should Draco help his father commit
this additional murder out of family loyalty?

Adam Prep0sterous wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177396>:

<< But without a subversive reading that makes down up, light dark,
good bad, and chocolate ice cream taste like Brussels sprouts, how
does one identify with Draco without feeling bad about the person that
they are? At his best, he's a misguided little spoiled twit who likes
to have fun at the expense of others. At his worst, he's a genocidal
monster in the making. I don't think a funny comeback or two makes up
for that. >>

I don't identify with Draco, but if I were a girl at his school, I'd
have a crush on him: he's good-looking, stylish, funny, intelligent
enough to be a good student with good marks, and I must confess that I
find that wealth and a posh accent are attractive features. Having a
crush on him, I'd either be in denial about his bloodism and
genocidism or believe that he would learn better by associating with
me and my high morals. As an adult reader, I have a similar attitude:
he's an attractive character and I want him to reform and be redeemed.

Lizzyben wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177405>:

<< The worst, worst contradiction was Harry's cheering squad that
assured him "Dying doesn't hurt a bit, It's quicker & easier than
falling asleep!" right after Harry witnessed Snape's painful, long,
horrible death. Easy platitudes are contradicted by the harsh 
reality. >>

James and Lily were killed by Avada Kedavra. Sirius was killed either
by Avada Kedavra or by falling through the Veil. Those are what we
call a painless death, as the process of being killed doesn't hurt.
Harry expected LV to use AK on him, as LV is awfully predictable that
way. (If LV had used a dagger instead, would that have killed the soul
bit in Harry's scar?)

Severus's painful death was painful because he was bitten and venomed
and thought he had failed, not because it was death. Supposing that
instead of a vial to hold his memories, Hermione had produced a
antidote from her super purse and cured him, so he would stay alive.
That wouldn't make the pain not have happened. 

We know about the pain of being bitten and venomed from people to whom
it happened but they survived to tell about it. We don't know whether
the dying itself (as distinct from the wound or poison or heart attack
or whatever that killed) hurts because no one has ever come back and
told us (in RL). Actually, now that you mention it, Harry could have
questioned ghosts instead of these miraculous revenants, because
ghosts DID die, they just didn't 'go on'. 

Anyway, I have been with cats while they died, and while the weakening
can take a while, the instant in which the soul leaves the body (the
DEATH itself) is faster than the blink of an eye. I feel like it's a
paradox that such a BIG thing happens too quickly to see it.

I suppose the existence of those miraculous revenants means that there
is an afterlife in the Potterverse where individual identity is
retained and not reincarnation, because what would happen to the body
of the person's current incarnation if the person left it to take care
of a previous incarnation's business?

(I wrote the above BEFORE I read Pippin's
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177521>)

Speaking of ghosts, Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177552>:

<< So, from NHN's point-of-view he stayed behind, but from his soul's
point of view, it left a copy of its frightened self and went on. >>

If ghosts are, as Snape taught, the imprint of departed souls, I guess
the souls under discussion are still in the waiting room (what Harry
saw as King's Cross). I guess the ghost happened when the soul TRIED
to go back to life (as Harry did successfully). Because if it were
literally an imprint, it would have nothing to do with the person's
choice, only with how big an *impression* the person had made in life,
especially while dying (in the non-instantaneous sense).

or.phan_ann wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177449>:

<< The Wizarding World is only too keen on sweeping dirty secrets
under the carpet: consider the number of Death Eaters who went free,
and the fact that there were known to be at least some at large. (The
tip of an iceberg, that one.) >>

You had just mentioned "such a small [community] as the Wizarding
World", which gave me that idea that, in addition to their habit of
hiding rather than lancing abscesses, such a smalll community needs
all its workers and gene pool and therefore can't afford to exile a
large number of people no matter how much they deserve it.

Katie wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/177507>:

<< However, it's not really reasonable to welcome all those dark
wizards into a school with normal people and put them in a house that
will only encourage those dark tendencies.  (snip) I don't understand
why Hogwarts just didn't get rid of Slytherin House after Salazar
Slytherin split. >>

I think that the wizards generally regard the difference between Dark
Magic and Light Magic the way Muggles regard the difference between
Democrats and Republicans. Some people really care about it and can't
understand how there can be people so wrong-headed as to agree with
the other side, but both sides have those loyalists. In real life,
there aren't so many places where the electorate would allow the
school board to require a course in All (Democrats/Repubicans) Are
Evil and then expel the students who didn't agree. Similarly, if a
Headmaster ordered that all students be taught that Dark Magic is bad,
wicked, evil, uncool, don't do it, or that Dark magic is a perfectly
useful tool that only silly fanatics want to ban, a lot of parents and
citizens would denounce him for trying to brainwash their children
into disagreeing with the parents' beliefs. I am saying that Slytherin
House cannot be abolished because it has too many supporters among the
electorate.

I admit there was no electorate when three Founders ran the school
after Salazar split. I suppose they believed they couldn't abolish
Slytherin House for some magical reason, such as all four Founders had
made a 'binding magical contract' that none of their Houses would be
eliminated, or that Salazar had left a powerful curse on anyone who
tried to abolish Slytherin House.