Suspension of disbelief WAS: Why should we care if Harry's not really needed?

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 182369

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <BIG SNIP>
> > So my issue with the Voldemort story is that JKR went sloppy.
> >> <BIG SNIP>

> >>Alla:
> I was acknowledging the suspension of disbelief in any story where 
> child is a hero IMO and where adults have to take a second seat.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ah.  No, that's not something I do.  And it's not something I felt I 
was expected to do for this series.  Not until... well DH, to be 
honest.  (I think there were warning signs fairly early on, but I 
ignored them because other things were hopeful and JKR was pretty 
coy.)  

But yes, I do expect child adventure stories to have a reasonable 
reason for the child being the one on the adventure.  It's not like 
it's impossible or anything.  Other children's stories have come up 
with reasons other than the adults being idiots for their child 
protaganists to be front and center. (The adults are busy and/or 
distracted.  The adults are too set in their ways and/or the task 
needs a certain level of purity to achieve.)  Frankly, I think it's 
the first thing an author should consider.

That JKR showed her adults literally sitting around (maybe pranking a 
few bad guy offices) waiting for Harry to save their skins?  That 
pushed my envelope of "suspension of disbelief" too far.  For me 
anyway.

A caveat: I haven't read a ton of children's books (including the 
ones you're using for examples, Alla).  So maybe it *is* generally a 
given that the grownups are just stupid in children's books.  It's 
not something I easily buy.  But if it's just part of the genre, 
well, there you are. <g>

> >>Catlady:
> <snip>
> I don't object to Harry's special skill being luck, I object that
> Rowling, having consciously or accidentally taken on a plot echoing
> the archetype of the young boy who is the ONLY ONE who can do the
> heroic task, 'went sloppy' (whose phrase what that? Alla's?) about 
> the reason that Harry is the 'only' one.
> <snip>
> The problem with a novel requiring a ridiculous condition for being
> able to kill the target is that a novel requires a certain         
> superficial plausibility.
> <snip>
> I suppose she tried to make up a plausible reason with the love-   
> death protection and the not-a-Horcrux and the Elder Wand's        
> ownership and maybe all that Basilisk venom stuff that Carol is    
> going on about. I think she failed because it is all too confusing. 
> It must become clearly and blindingly obvious to readers why the    
> hero was the ONLY ONE, otherwise the archetype gets broken.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
That was hard to snip! <g>  But yeah, I think I see what you're 
getting at, and I agree.  I remember reading an essay way back in the 
day (college) about fairy tales and how the heroes of fairy tales do 
tend to prevail through luck rather than skill. (Sticky goose, magic 
purse, a clever talking cat in boots.)  Thing is though, fairy tales 
are, in general, short stories.  JKR wrote a seven book epic.  

Most of the epics I have known (I'm by no means an expert) have a 
hero with skills as well as luck.  So I think by putting so much of 
Harry's success to luck rather than skill, JKR made a grievous error 
(at least for this reader).  For one, it's hard to keep believing 
that one boy is so darn lucky.  For another, it's hard to believe 
reasonable adults faced with the destruction of their world would put 
all their eggs in the basket of that boy's luck.  Which ends in a 
hard to believe plot.  And also some confusion, I agree. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I can suspend disbelief and believe that dragons help guard a bank
> > run by goblins. Ask me to believe that a young boy and his plucky
> > friends can waltz into that bank, steal stuff, and then escape on 
> > a dragon?
> > <snip>

> >>Pippin:
> Why not? It's an inside job -- could some teenagers break into Fort
> Knox if two of them were prodigies and they had the help of a former
> employee? 
> <snip>
> Or don't you think JKR did enough to establish that Hermione and
> Harry were extraordinarily talented?

Betsy Hp:
But it had nothing to do with talent.  The dragon being there for 
them to escape on wasn't part of their plan, it had nothing to do 
with any... I guess dragon skills.  They were just lucky the dragon 
was there, wanted to leave, and wasn't angry enough (or hurt enough) 
to attack anyone who got close.  No dependency on skill, no 
dependency on their inside man.  Just luck.

> >>Pippin: 
> Of course in a fable we expect luck to play a part in the hero's
> victory. It's part of the reward for being virtuous. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But they weren't all that virtuous (they were planning on screwing 
over their inside man), so I'm not sure you could call it a fable.  I 
think it *does* fit with the fairytale genre though where luck is 
just luck and virtue has little to with it (IIRC).

> >>Lynda:
> <snip>
> Of course, with me, when that contract breaks down I simply        
> discontinue to read the book or books involved. That's simply the   
> way I handle situations like that (I am not telling you that you   
> should have done likewise just remarking on how I handle the       
> situation--there are too many books out there for me to put my
> time into something I'm not enjoying).

Betsy Hp:
I wish I'd been able to, believe me.  I enjoyed the series all the 
way through HBP.  The Trio had begun to worry me a bit, but I thought 
this was a coming of age story, and generally those do go through 
their bit of darkness before the dawn.  Unfortunately, I'd gotten my 
wires horribly and unforgivably crossed.  This wasn't a coming of age 
story at all and the Trio remained the same.  

By the time I realized this was a story not to my taste (at all) I'd 
already invested my time and energy.  More time and energy than any 
book experience before because of it being a work in progress and the 
internet.  

But yeah, this is by no means a big part of my life anymore, and I'm 
in a whole new fandom.  Just, it was a pretty bad burn on my end (how 
was I so stupid? hive mind? lying author? what?).  So sometimes I 
like to explore the reasons I got pulled in and what went wrong.

Betsy Hp