Suspension of disbelief -Idiots of War

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 182393

> Carol earlier:
> > <SNIP>
> > We do have a reason why Lupin doesn't help Harry in OoP or HBP; 
he's
> spying on the werewolves. In DH, Harry declines his offer to help
> them, believing (rightly, IMO) that Lupin's duty to his pregnant 
wife
> and unborn child should come before anything else. 

Magpie:
Just to stick in my own opinion here, I don't think he's right that 
Lupin's wife and unborn child should necessarily come before anything 
else. I know you're not suggesting this, but I think that implies men 
who go away to fight a war who have a family are irresponsible. And 
in this case the war directly effects his wife and child. Families 
make sacrifices in war time.

I think that's where the a lot of the disconnect comes from in DH. On 
one hand JKR wants your usual kid-centered fantasy where it's up to 
Harry to do everything, and that's fine. Claiming that Lupin is being 
irresponsible and trying to run away from his grown up life by 
following him would fit right into that idea--you don't go on 
adventures with Peter Pan when you're not the child. 

However, that doesn't really work when she's also making vague 
allusions to World War II and the country being taken over. When that 
happens it becomes not only responsible but expected that intelligent 
adults will make it their fight. And it's not unusual for people to 
leave their civilian jobs (or do things outside of work) for it as 
well.

>
> Alla:
>
> ... I would add some bad reasons to that - like adults of
> Order not questioning Dumbledore nearly enough IMO, BUT that
> is how many people you listed?
>
> I counted seven, ..., and last time I checked there are much
> more people in Wizarding World than that.
>
> And also last time I checked Voldemort DID threaten WW as whole.
> Where are all those people?


bboyminn:

Let me say on the subject in general, that real-life real-
world adults are idiots. It's easy, in a sense, to not seem an
idiot when you are not involved. Look around the world
today, and that much is clear. But when their is a call for
action, universally, adults are idiots on both a large and
small scale. If you don't believe me, just ask your kids.

Magpie:
Why would the kids' views be accurate? Adults say "kids are idiots" 
too. And sometimes kids are idiots, just as much as adults. But when 
it comes down to it, resistance movements are led by adults. And kids 
fighting wars are often being manipulated by adults. Adults and kids 
are the same beings, only one has been alive longer. They're not 
really opposing forces. And in a coming of age story, I think you 
have to be careful about how much you do the "adults are idiots" 
thing. It's one thing in a Roald Dahl book where the story is 
basically for young children, but if that's the case here then Harry 
and all his classmates end the series as idiots. (Ironically, part of 
the reason adults in the WW often seem so ridiculous is that they are 
in key ways still children. This is a world where nobody ever really 
gets out of high school, where nobody's more impressive than your 
school headmaster, everybody holds on to their childhood 
relationships and a sporting event for three teenagers is front page 
news.)

And one can accept all this as the set up for this world. But if you 
call it reality of course it's going to get held to a different 
standard--and fail. Put this up against a book like World War Z where 
the world is overrun by armies of zombies. Things fall apart--and 
then humans all over the world find solutions. 

Steve:

And how do you make people believe what they don't want to
believe. Are they more likely to believe the school head-
master or the government? Recent events in our time tell us
how easily the public will bow to the wild unsubstantiated
stories of the government. (Sorry, don't mean to get real-
world political, but it serves as a perfect illustration.)

Magpie:
Bringing in the real world politics doesn't really help you, since 
yes, there are people who bow to stories in the government, but there 
are also people who call out those unsubstantiated stories in the 
government. They try to get the truth out. And none of this stuff 
applies to our alleged Order of Adult Fighters. I can accept this is 
what JKR needed for her story. I think it's insulting to call it a 
realistic depiction of war when she barely sketched out that idea. 
Especially since by DH I think a lot more people would be ready to 
believe Voldemort was back and in charge of the government. And even 
if somebody didn't believe Voldemort himself was in charge jeez, 
wasn't there enough to fight against anyway? Fudge got forced out 
because people didn't trust him to stand up to Voldemort and Dark 
Wizards--aren't they annoyed by the kidnappings and murders?

Steve:
But how do you fight the war that Voldemort did present? Should
Arthur start cursing and killing every one at the Ministry he
suspected was a Death Eater, and how are other people at the
Ministry suppose to know that he is right? They would likely
think Mr. Weasley was corrupted by DE's, and was taking out
the Ministry. Naturaly, Mr. Weasley's assult would last about
10 minutes before the Ministry killed him. Dead soldiers don't
fight very well.

Magpie:
See, this is where I don't get how these books are inspiring if this 
situation is so hopeless. Arthur's an intelligent man who's supposed 
to, with a group of other intelligent, loyal and accomplished 
wizards, have been preparing for Voldemort's return for YEARS. But 
now when it's happening, when his own government where he works is 
doing this stuff, he's supposed to think, "Well, what am I supposed 
to do, start cursing everyone? Why would anyone believe me anyway? 
They'd probably think I was a DE and taking out the Ministry. And 
then I'd get killed in 10 minutes anyway, and God knows I can't fight 
when I'm dead. So I'll just give a stern look to that guy who's 
rounding up innocent Muggleborns and killing them. I can't possibly 
think of anything else to do, or organize any kind of effective 
anything until Harry calls." 

(Naturally when Harry showed up at the Ministry he, Hermione and Ron 
manage to come up with a plan on the fly and do it.)

Steve:
So, they acted like the French Underground. The French
Underground was certainly not in a position to confront the
Nazis in a full frontal assault. They had neither the manpower
nor the fire power for that. They certainly couldn't go to
the French police or the French government, who had already
bent over and kissed Hitler's...er...perhaps better not to go
there.

Magpie:
I think that's insulting to Muggles to suggest these guys are like 
the French underground. It seems to me more like you'd think they 
would act like them but they don't. We've seen what Wizards can do. 
(And their opposing force of DEs are flawed, to say the least.) The 
real life adults looked at all the questions you asked about what 
Arthur could do and--as people have done throughout history--found 
creative solutions. 

Steve:
WE don't see this 'shadows' battle because Harry is cut off
from it, so he doesn't see it. What Harry doesn't see, we
don't see. But just because we don't see it though doesn't
mean it's not happening.

Magpie:
I think it does mean it's not happening. I can't write in that much 
of a story when all the information that I see says something else.  
We actually should see plenty of signs of it. Instead we pretty much 
see the heads of the resistance and they're not doing this stuff. 
When Lupin tries to join the shadow battle (what Harry is doing) he's 
told to go home to his family.

Steve:
In the case of Harry Potter, it was until Harry
found a way, or until such time as outside forces could be
rallied to step in, or until internal forces could be
sufficiently rallied. 

Magpie:
Pretty much just until Harry found a way--nobody was rallying anybody 
either. The DEs had a pretty free reign until Harry returned like 
King Arthur and then everybody ran to fight in the one battle in one 
building and become war heroes.

Steve:
But internally, that power should come
from the Ministry, but the Ministry was thoroughly co-opted
from within. So, not much hope there. Dumbledore, the
internationally powerful and respected voice, was dead, so not
much hope on that front.

Magpie:
Hence the view that this is a sad world that doesn't entirely mirror 
our own. I think Muggles would have had more options. We can be 
idiots too, but we've got our good points.

Steve:
So, why did adults act like idiots, well, because they were.
They were leaderless, and without focus, direction, or clear
purpose. I find their actions very true to life.

Magpie:
Wow, I'm glad I don't. I would think a world full of adults would 
have looked at a situation where they were leaderless, without focus, 
direction or clear purpose and create those things. That's the 
challenge they faced and they didn't rise to it. It's especially 
weird that they're supposed to be these things despite the pre-
existing group that one would have expected would have provided every 
one of those things. Of course there's going to be people who don't 
become heroes, but there's a lot of Muggle heroes to go around in 
wars. It seems like you're covering both ends--they can't have done 
anything, but we should also imagine them doing things.

Steve:
It's easy to say, why didn't the adults do something, but
what exactly and how? It's not an easy task, especially when
the central organizing authority in your world is corrupted
by Voldemort.

Magpie:
I don't think anybody said it had to be easy. The point is their 
world is facing a challenge and they didn't respond to it. The 
Ministry was never much of a good authoritative force--in fact, I 
thought Wizards were supposed to not like authority anyway. I would 
have thought this group of people would be especially hard to take 
over with the way they all carry lethal weapons they're trained to 
use, disappear at will and spend as much time as they do pranking 
each other.

Harry's school gets taken over by a bad guy in OotP. How could the 
students get it together? And yet they did. The kids put their mind 
to the problem and found ways around it. They found other natural 
resisters. It wasn't all smooth sailing, but both there and in DH 
there were kids who hoped for a leader and found one. In DH they'd 
lost Dumbledore and Harry...and then there was Neville. Nobody has 
this kind of force prepared until they need it.

-m