Suspension of disbelief -Idiots of War

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 182409

> > Magpie:
> > We've pretty much all been using the shorthand of "kids" to 
refer to 
> > Harry's generation and "adults" to mean those out of school. The 
> > same distinction that's been made throughout canon. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Yes, JKR makes us think of them  as kids, but they're not  kids in 
the
> eyes of their society (except for Molly.)

Magpie:
This is a totally different thing than what we're talking about. 
They're students at Hogwarts, and have been students for all or most 
of the book. They're being contrasted with the actual adults, the 
people who have been out of school and leading professional lives 
since the beginning of the series and preparing for Voldemort's 
return. That's who we're obviously all talking about. That our guys 
are "grown up on the inside" or just passed the date where they'd be 
tried as adults has little bearing on that.


Pippin:
> The senior generation did what they could, IMO, but it's always 
been
> the younger generation that's had to fight wars. JKR makes us feel
> again how wrong and unfair that is, as if we'd never known it 
before.
> That's what good fantasy is supposed to do. 

Magpie:
No, they didn't do what they could. I'm sticking with the 
conversation I thought I joined, not leaping to one about how war 
subverts nature and makes parents bury children (which doesn't 
happen in this story anyway—the older generation has more deaths). 
People saying the Order didn't play a part or thinking they were 
lame doesn't translate into JKR making me feel how wrong or unfair 
war is. A story contrasting old generals waging a war with the 19-
year-olds on the front line would be making that point. This story 
is shoving adults out of the way so that the teen heroes can get the 
glory and action. The conversation stemmed from many of us saying 
that we thought of course adults could do it themselves given this 
situation and would have in a different genre. 

  
> > Magpie:
> > We're just disagreeing that JKR set up a situation where everyone
> was powerless and paralyzed to do anything  but wait for Harry. And
> that this was playing it like a realistic  war story. 
> 
> Pippin:
> I don't see how you can acknowledge that in real life there are 
times
> when  people feel they are paralyzed and powerless to do anything, 
and
> yet say that if JKR puts that in her story, it's not realistic. 

Magpie:
Saying that yes, sometimes in real life people--even seemingly 
countries--can feel powerless and paralyzed does not make a story 
realistic just because it shows people doing nothing. As I said, it 
reads to me like they're not doing anything because Harry's the 
hero, not because it's showing me the realistic psychology of people 
feeling helpless. In fact, she's not even showing them feeling 
helpless because we still need all our good guys to be as plucky and 
brave as they always have been. So they're shown to be plucky and 
brave but just not having a part to play. Which is fine for HP, but 
doesn't make it a study on the psychology of defeat.

  
> > Magpie:
> > The Order wasn't in disarray at all. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Excuse me? The enemy leader is invulnerable, their government has
> fallen in a silent coup, they've been horribly betrayed, Voldemort
> knows all their identities, two of their leaders have been killed 
one
> after the other, they've been ambushed, and they have no idea how 
the
> enemy is learning their plans. 

Magpie:
How does that translate into the Order being in disarray? Sorry 
they've had some setbacks, but I don't see how this has exploded the 
group. They don't have any plans for the enemy to learn after the 
one to bring Harry from one house to another. They're not searching 
out the mole. They don't have to, because there's nothing with which 
to interfere. Dumbledore didn't leave any more Orders, so they've 
got nothing to do.

Pippin: 
> Their last instruction from Dumbledore was that Harry is their best
> hope. Harry says he has instructions from Dumbledore, he trusts 
them
> all, but he can't tell them what he's doing. 
> 
> If that's not disarray, what is? 

Magpie:
Something other than being in contact and running a radio show and 
following your orders from Dumbledore. Those orders also reflecting 
that the title of this book is "Harry Potter and the..." and not "A 
Game of Wands."

But naturally if people are asked to imagine hypothetical situations 
where you don't fix your hopes on Harry and hope Dumbledore foresaw 
this situation and has an unknown plan in action and imagine what 
the Order should do, many won't see them as completely unable to do 
anything. They could come up with some strategies that would not be 
beyond their reach.

Pippin:> 
> They're not fighting a conventional war where there's lots of ways 
to
> cripple the enemy. The only way to destroy Voldemort's war machine 
is
> to destroy Voldemort. 

Magpie:
They might not be fighting a conventional war but that doesn't mean 
there aren't lots of ways to cripple the enemy. Voldemort doesn't 
have a "war machine." He has followers and they aren't immortal. 
Take one out, Imperius them, get information from them--these things 
could all be helpful. You claim that Dumbledore acting as traitor to 
the Order without telling anybody about it and giving Snape the 
details of their flight from Privet Drive put them in disarray 
forever. That would imply having a spy in Voldemort's camp might 
have been helpful too—jeez, those guys are already at each other's 
throats. Lupin's spying in HBP seems to indicate stuff like that 
will happen, but it goes nowhere because that would entail writing a 
whole strategy. There's no real strategy to what Lupin is doing that 
will pay off, the point is the Lupin/Tonks plot and Lupin's personal 
struggles. 


> > Pippin:
> > > I can see where it seems stupid that if there were all these
> people willing to help they couldn't have helped Harry more 
directly.
> But how could he rally them to help when he himself wasn't sure he
> could  trust Dumbledore, and yet the only credibility he had was
> Dumbledore's authority and a prophecy he didn't understand? 
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > I don't see why that was a problem when it came to Horcruxes.
> 
> Pippin:
> Harry: I don't believe in Dumbledore's plan, because otherwise I 
would
> have kept this secret  like he wanted,  but he said I have to 
round up
> all these horcrux thingies and destroy them. I've decided I'm too 
much
> of a wimp, so I'd rather you lot did it. I should tell you that 
they
> may be  cursed, some of them are incredibly precious objects that 
are
> heavily guarded, and they can possess anybody who isn't filled with
> the power of love.  Oh, and the prophesy says I have to be the one 
to
> kill Voldemort, unless he kills me first, except Dumbledore said it
> doesn't mean that unless I think it does. But Voldemort can't be
> killed till we get rid of the horcrux thingies, so while you're out
> risking yournecks and being turned into zombies, I'll just, um, 
hang
> around the burrow with Ginny and snog, shall I? Right!

Magpie:
Okay, let me try to understand this paragraph. So first you're 
claiming that if Harry doesn't follow Dumbledore's instructions not 
to tell anyone, that means the whole plan must be thrown out--which 
of course is not true. He can trust that information while not 
choosing to keep it secret. It's not all or nothing. He doesn't have 
to trust Dumbledore completely, even if that makes him feel 
comforted.

Then there seems to be the problem that it would be like Harry 
saying he was too much of a wimp so he wants other people to do it. 
This has some relevance if you assume, as I've been saying, that 
this is a work of YA fiction and we want Harry to do it because his 
name is on the book and because he's a kid, just like the intended 
audience. However, as some sort of realistic reason for not getting 
the Order involved, it's ridiculous. Who cares whether the kid feels 
like a wimp or not? Why on earth should he feel badly about other 
people helping if they can actually help? 

Then there's the fact that the things are dangerous, as if that's 
supposed to be some reason that nobody should try it...not sure why. 
Especially given that everybody in the Order loves. Horcruxes were 
destroyed by Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione and Vincent Crabbe, so I see 
no reason that some team comprised of Order members can't possibly 
be on the case. 

Then there's a note about the Prophecy that has little relevance I 
can see to whether or not Arthur and Bill would be able to attempt 
to find the Cup of Hufflepuff.

Then there's another reference to how it's ridiculous to suggest 
that anybody should be out risking anything while Harry just sits at 
home and snogs Ginny...while it apparently makes perfect sense that 
Harry and his two friends should be risking their necks while 
everybody else sits at home and snogs their significant other. If 
your main concern is Harry's glory as the fictional hero yeah, that 
makes sense (I'm the hero of this book, so get out of my way while I 
alone pursue my dangerous quest!). In a regular war, Harry would be 
the one at home snogging. It's a fictional strategy more than a war 
strategy.

> > Magpie:
> > Of course he could have asked his friends to help him-he has his 
> > dearest with him the whole time.
> 
> Pippin:
> Sorry, no. Ginny is Harry's Weezy now. And he didn't ask Ron and
> Hermione to help him, they insisted. 

Magpie:
So, they're still with him. What difference does make that they 
insisted? (Dumbledore told him to include them.)The Order could have 
insisted too, but adults are not welcome because that's the kind of 
fantasy it is. Ron and Hermione are still closer to him than Ginny, 
sorry. She's not his wife yet. They're certainly closer to him than 
all the people you're claiming he can't have with him because 
they're so close to him. I wasn't even thinking of Ginny, obviously, 
since I'm talking about what the Order might have done. If we're 
talking about adults strategy, bringing his girlfriend too doesn't 
apply either.

 
> Magpie:
> 
>  Or the Order--one might have 
> > expected Dumbledore to have asked them. He certainly could have 
> > trusted Lupin--Lupin "not trusting himself" sounds tragic and 
all, 
> > but it's not like hunting objects and destroying him would be 
beyond 
> > him.
> 
> Pippin:
> ::boggles:: Look at what the locket was able to make of Ron's
> perfectly normal insecurities, and then ask yourself what it would 
do
> to Lupin. Even Harry could bring out the wolf with a well-chosen
> insult or two. What a horcrux could manage, I dread to think.

Magpie:
I'm asking myself what it would do to Lupin (assuming he was the one 
to open the locket). I'm not seeing anything so much worse than 
happened to Ron, who's also insecure. Harry insulted Lupin and he 
got angry. He didn't turn into a wolf. Of course the Horcrux hunt is 
somewhat difficult. That doesn't make every Order member obviously 
unequal to it in ways that Ron isn't. Including Lupin. Certainly not 
the point where you'd expect them all to assume it's too much for 
them without trying.

 
> Magpie:
>  Another person might have had *Dumbledore* approach the Horcrux 
> > problem a different way. That's essentially what started the 
thread, 
> > I think. He's the general.
> 
> Pippin:
> You don't think it's realistic to have a spymaster whose passion 
for
> secrecy creates problems for his own organization?  Or who would 
have
> turned to a young person to do the impossible?

Magpie:
Yes, that could be realistic. That doesn't mean this is realistic 
story because Dumbledore keeps secrets. Dumbledore's passion for 
secrecy doesn't translate into as much of a problem as it might have 
in a John Le Carre novel where adults would be trying to uncover 
this stuff rather than protecting their childish trust in the guy 
that they'll lose hope without. I haven't read the books in a while, 
but I think when Control dies Smiley tries to figure out what he was 
up to and get into the loop. Since Dumbledore's dead, why assume his 
plans were correct? You can trust the guy's intentions without 
assuming he's got to be right.

Pippin:
It
> was because they didn't have the training or experience to know 
what
> couldn't be done -- so they did it. 

Magpie:
Excellent story, and the reason that story stands out is that it's 
unusual in warfare. There were people doing other things besides 
that one mission. Though there's no reason the Order should have 
thought that destroying the Horcruxes (not that that was the only 
thing they could have been doing) was impossible. Why should it be?

I haven't argued that a teenager could never do anything. I argued 
against the idea that given the objective situation, the only 
solution is exactly what happened in the books. And that stuff going 
on with the adults is like a realistic war story. I don't think it 
is. I think this is a quest narrative about a young man who must, 
with his young friends, track down magical objects and kill his 
nemesis, with a smattering of recognizable war clichés setting the 
scene. "War stuff" rather than a thought-out war. Which fits the 
style of the books throughout all 7.

-m