Suspension of disbelief - Being dependent

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 182471

> Betsy Hp:
> What I'd want is for the author to not just merely hand-wave away 
> the "should have been".  The writer is trying to draw me into her 
> world, to make me believe it.  So put some effort into it. Come up 
> with a reason for Voldemort to have driven the WW to its knees.
> Make him so powerful/crafty/charming/whatever that a handful of
> creative and inventive people *couldn't* stop him.
> 
> Then set him loose upon your world.

Mike:
I feel your pain, Betsy. (sorry, couldn't resist) But I do think JKR 
tried to paint Voldemort as a very powerful and demonic figure. What 
with all that "you-know-who" BS, we were supposed to believe that 
everyone except Dumbledore was scared of him, and even Dumbledore 
admits that Tom knows more vile, evil magic than he does. Hell, look 
at the very last scene before the Harry duel. Even with Harry's 
martyred love protection, LV blasts McG, Sluggy and Kingsley off 
their collective feets and sends them writhing through the air. So 
she tried, she really did.

But, she failed and she failed in DH specifically because we got to 
see sooo much more of him than we got in the other six books 
combined. I stopped being scared of him (and I mean as a reader 
putting myself in Harry's shoes) when I heard all the idiotic notions 
that seeped out of his mouth. The Nagini-in-Bathilda was some scary 
and creepy magic, but there wasn't enough of that compared to what 
had become the mundane magic of a megalomaniac (say that 6 times 
fast).


> Betsy Hp:
> Well, yes.  But good writers think up a reason for good guy 1 
> failing.  JKR doesn't, IMO.

Mike:
Here, I'm going to disagree with you ever so slightly. If Good Guy 1 
is DD, the reason DD couldn't stop him was acceptable imo. DD was 
painted as the consumate "give em a second chance" guy. And when Tom 
was on his second chance - at Hogwarts - he charmed the pants off of 
every other teacher except DD. He was also never caught openly 
committing anything. He tied DD's own hands with his second chance.

Combine that with DD's idiotic penchant for secrecy - which was 
nontheless sold extremely well throughout the series - and you have a 
reasonable excuse for why Good Guy 1 failed to stop Bad Guy A early 
on, imo.



> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, and that would have been an excellent foundation for 
> Voldemort's unstoppability. <snip> 

Mike:
I'm hijacking your line of reasoning to tie back into stuff that was 
brought up a few days back re the Idiots of War, by Steve. First off, 
I'm in agreement with Alla, I wanted to see more resistance by the 
rest of the WW. I found their lack of same to be infuriating. And I 
also agree with Magpie, that it wasn't the limited omniscient 
narrator that kept us from seeing these French Resistance type 
actions. We didn't see them because they weren't there in any 
sufficient degree to make them worth noting.

Steve's argument that they were out there was countered by his own 
argument that there were no front lines, there wasn't any standing or 
occupational army to fight. Just a few scattered DEs, here and there 
Imperiusing people to do their bidding. The good guys, not being sure 
who to fight or how to fight them, left them impotent. So, yeah 
Pippin, they did what they felt they could, and yeah Lois, enough 
little harassments can add up, eventually. 

But Arthur Weasley, to me, is the embodiment of the whole WW problem 
with fighting a tyrant like Voldemort. Back in GoF, Arthur oozed fear 
of anything Voldemort in explaining the way it was in VW1. And 
Arthur, though typical of your average wizard, wasn't a resistance 
fighter nor a soldier. He fell asleep on guard duty and it almost 
cost him his life. That's the kind of mentality that permeates the 
WW, with a few exceptions like Moody and Kingsley. They aren't 
equipped with the mentality to fight the good fight, nor the 
soldiering acumen to know what's important.

Why aren't they equipped? Because they are intellectually lazy. They 
have magic, they don't need to work hard at anything. With a flick of 
their wands and a few correct phrases, they can get most anything 
done in a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the effort that 
their Muggle counterparts would have to spend. So when a Dark Lord 
emerges, one that has more magical abilities and knowledge than them, 
they are at a loss for what to do about him. Fudge said it best in 
HBP Ch. 1, "the other side can do magic too". And do it better than 
you can, eh Fudge?

I'm convinced that if Snape hadn't loved Lily, the evil side would 
have won this war in VW1. Snape was one of the few intellectuals that 
could have swayed the balance of power into Voldemort's camp. Then 
again, a living James, Sirius and Lily all putting in an earnest 
effort, may have countered Snape's serious mind. They at least seemed 
to have the fortitude to stand up to Voldemort.



> Betsy Hp:
> It would have been quite easy to make the WW look at Voldemort
> as someone wonderful or someone to ignore and Dumbledore as a
> crank.  But that's not how she wrote Voldemort's rise. He's pretty
> much terrorizing from the get go <snip>

Mike:
Depends upon your reading, Betsy. I thought that Voldemort was 
portrayed as a charmer in his Hogwarts years. I also perceived him as 
a charmer in the early years after his return from his self imposed 
exile. I thought that whatever indiscretions that occured early on 
were not being traced back to him, just like his time at Hogwarts. 
Hindsight is 20/20 and many probably figured that Voldemort was 
behind the strange disappearances after he openly declared his 
hostility towards the Ministry and the rest of the WW in general. But 
at the time it was happening, he seemed to have covered his tracks 
pretty well. YMMV



> Betsy Hp:
> I meant more, Harry realizing that he was the ass in this
> scenario. 
<snip>
> But Harry himself doesn't have to recognize that someone else
> was right where he was wrong.  Harry never has to rethink the
> way he comes at things.

Mike:
OK, so this is not a case where Harry has to recognize someone he 
hated was right and he was wrong. But in rushing off to the Ministry 
in OotP, Harry overrode Hermione's more reasoned thinking and was 
dead wrong. And he paid the ultimate price for it, the life of his 
Godfather. This hurts Harry clear to the bone, much worse than any 
humiliation could possibly have.

And he becomes more circumspect for it. All through HBP he's 
convinced Draco is up to something. But this time he tries to get 
some evidence. Yeah, he bleats out whenever he gets near someone's 
ear, but they never listen to him because he has no evidence.

I know that's not exactly what you're looking for Betsy, but it's the 
best I can do. Mostly because I agree with you regarding the lack of 
Bilding in this Bildingsroman. (thanks Carol, I can even spell it 
now) Luckily, my enjoyment of the series didn't hinge upon Harry's 
development in the intellectual or moral categories. I wanted magic, 
and I got some pretty cool, if sometimes gruesome magic in DH. Simple 
things for simple minds, doncha know. ;-)



> Betsy Hp:
> 
> As to Snape...  Oh, Snape, I remember when you were cool, alas. So 
> much promise, down the drain.  Now you're dead and a nasty little
> toe-rag of a child has named his stupid, whiny off-spring after
> you.  For a middle name of a middle child anyway.  Well, that's
> what comes from losing your head over a stuck up, snot of a girl.
> You end up chained to an egocentric madman, forced to guard a
> child most unworthy. Really, death was the kindest course.  At
> least you avoided the sanctimonious ever-after.  I mean, look at
> the poor Malfoys.  Do they look happy?  Of course they don't.  Who
> would?  Doomed to life of dependency on the kindness of
> Gryffindors.  ::shudder::

Mike:
HA! You mean Snape the wimp-boy, can't even convince a broom to let 
him ride it, gets hauled up by his ankles to show the world his dirty 
underpants? This guy that picks on kids a third of his age, but 
cowers in front of Mad-Eye (not even the real Mad-Eye mind you) like 
he's still a school boy and runs off to Filch when he gets a little 
scratch on his leg. 

"Potter, you lost me my medal. And after all my hard work conjuring 
stretchers. Nevermind that I was going to take credit for capturing 
the *dangerous* criminal, Sirius Black, even though I let three third-
year kids knock me out and spent the rest of the time unconscious."

"Oh, don't hurt me Dumbledore." Yep, that's the Snape I remember. I 
don't know about kinder course, but yeah, death was too good for 
Snivellus. He shoulda had to spend the rest of his life re-potting 
Mandrakes for Neville. He coulda had Draco helping him. And every 
once in a while, Draco blurts out, "My mom always hated you. She 
played you like a fiddle in a country band."


Mike, who also expects a little backlash from the Snape-o-philes, but 
had too much fun to care <vbeg>